Denied Fire-types in LC: The Good and the Bad

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dhelmise

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Introduction
telling the user what article is about etc

The Good

List vist viable LC Fire-types and explain why they're good

The Bad

Pretty much the same as "The Good," but instead listing nonviable Fire-types and why they're mistaken as viable

Conclusion

finishing up the article (aka summarizing the article)
 
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Valmanway

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If I could make a suggestion, I think you should only focus on one tier's Fire-types, since this would be an incredibly massive article if including all the tiers, depending on the length of each section. Alternatively, you could make this a two-part article, with one part released in one issue discussing the good Fire-types, and the second part released the issue after that discussing the bad Fire-types.
 

dhelmise

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If I could make a suggestion, I think you should only focus on one tier's Fire-types, since this would be an incredibly massive article if including all the tiers, depending on the length of each section. Alternatively, you could make this a two-part article, with one part released in one issue discussing the good Fire-types, and the second part released the issue after that discussing the bad Fire-types.
If I were to do the second suggestion, would I still need to do the one specific tier?
 

Valmanway

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If I were to do the second suggestion, would I still need to do the one specific tier?
I think mentioning each tier's Fire-types is fine as long as you make it two parts. Also, can we see a paragraph or two of what you'll write so we can see your writing skills?
 

dhelmise

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I think mentioning each tier's Fire-types is fine as long as you make it two parts. Also, can we see a paragraph or two of what you'll write so we can see your writing skills?
I'll post one in a bit :)
 

dhelmise

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Ubers
With the variety of Fire-types in the Ubers tier, there are many Pokemon who can fill the spot that you need. However, do you know if it will help your team, or hurt it?

Primal Groudon
Primal Groudon is one of the best attackers in the Ubers metagame, as well as being a great bulky hazard setter. With a great base Attack and Special Attack stat, Primal Groudon can easily run mixed. With access to moves that give it STAB, such as Earthquake, Lava Plume, Fire Punch, and moves that allow it to easily set up such as Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish, Primal Groudon is easily one of the best Fire-types in Ubers. Even though Primal Groudon can be seen as a mostly offensive Pokemon, it can pretty much fulfill pretty much role that's needed. Defensively, Primal Groudon is a good check to Kyogre and Geomancy Xerneas, while also being able to destroy the viability of multiple Pokemon and their sets. Offensively, Primal Groudon can be extremely difficult to stop due to its coverage and offensive options. A Rock Polish set is probably the most dangerous, as you cannot burn nor paralyze Primal Groudon and its checks depend on the moves it uses in the set, varying from Earthquake, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish.

Ho-oh
With its rare typing, Ho-oh has a unique STAB coverage, along with other moves to cover its weaknesses. With Regenerator, base 106 HP, and base 154 Special Defense, Ho-oh is difficult to KO. Despite its mediocre base 90 Defense, Ho-oh has a great base 130 Attack. Moves like Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, and Earthquake allow Ho-oh to cover the weaknesses of itself and its teammates without a hassle. Being the great attacker that it is, Ho-oh makes stall on the foe's side very difficult. Most cores crumble under the sheer power of Life Orb/Choice Band boosted Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, while Regenerator makes it very hard to wear Ho-oh don with passive damage, provided that it has relatively easy Defog support. On the defensive side, Ho-oh stalemates most Calm Mind Arceus formes at the very lease (with the exception of Arceus-Rock), as well as checking Geomancy Xerneas and Darkrai.

----------------------------

ye thats a preview, ill most likely add more onto the paragraphs and include sprites for them, and probably merge some paragraphs into one.

Ex:

(images here)
Ubers
Primal Groudon is one of the best attackers in the Ubers metagame, as well as being a great bulky hazard setter. With a great base Attack and Special Attack stat, Primal Groudon can easily run mixed. With access to moves that give it STAB, such as Earthquake, Lava Plume, Fire Punch, and moves that allow it to easily set up such as Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish, Primal Groudon is easily one of the best Fire-types in Ubers. Even though Primal Groudon can be seen as a mostly offensive Pokemon, it can pretty much fulfill pretty much role that's needed. Defensively, Primal Groudon is a good check to Kyogre and Geomancy Xerneas, while also being able to destroy the viability of multiple Pokemon and their sets. Offensively, Primal Groudon can be extremely difficult to stop due to its coverage and offensive options. A Rock Polish set is probably the most dangerous, as you cannot burn nor paralyze Primal Groudon and its checks depend on the moves it uses in the set, varying from Earthquake, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish. With its rare typing, Ho-oh has a unique STAB coverage, along with other moves to cover its weaknesses. With Regenerator, base 106 HP, and base 154 Special Defense, Ho-oh is difficult to KO. Despite its mediocre base 90 Defense, Ho-oh has a great base 130 Attack. Moves like Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, and Earthquake allow Ho-oh to cover the weaknesses of itself and its teammates without a hassle. Being the great attacker that it is, Ho-oh makes stall on the foe's side very difficult. Most cores crumble under the sheer power of Life Orb/Choice Band boosted Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, while Regenerator makes it very hard to wear Ho-oh don with passive damage, provided that it has relatively easy Defog support. On the defensive side, Ho-oh stalemates most Calm Mind Arceus formes at the very lease (with the exception of Arceus-Rock), as well as checking Geomancy Xerneas and Darkrai.
 
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Valmanway

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This looks good so far. You'll need to expand upon and polish this a bit, but that can be sorted out in the workshop. I'm also not exactly fluent in Ubers, so I'll tag Melee Mewtwo , shrang , and Sweep to make sure that you know what you're talking about here.
 

Bummer

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Gonna have to side with Val's earlier concerns. It's one thing to have an overall analysis on the Fire type and another to feature prominent fire types across all tiers, since the former can afford to be more general while the latter requires specific knowledge in all metas. So rather than trying to get a little of everything, see if you can condense the article some more and see if you can speak of the type's up and downs (while still using examples from some tiers).
 

dhelmise

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Gonna have to side with Val's earlier concerns. It's one thing to have an overall analysis on the Fire type and another to feature prominent fire types across all tiers, since the former can afford to be more general while the latter requires specific knowledge in all metas. So rather than trying to get a little of everything, see if you can condense the article some more and see if you can speak of the type's up and downs (while still using examples from some tiers).
ahh okay, would you like me to give a new example then?
 

Bummer

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ahh okay, would you like me to give a new example then?
In a way, yeah. Fire types have already been around, where some species have more or less made that type something to prepare for or not (Heatran was a big thing in Gen IV and V, for instance), while fire coverage has also been appreciated to combat steel types and whatnot. Then there's also howthey manage themselves fairly decently defensively, although the SR weakness has never been beneficial, nor are there that many defensive fire mons that stand out (once again, Heatran). Valmanway is still in charge, but I do recommend trying to structure this as an Overview to the type rather than picking out prominent fire mons from all tiers. The tiers themselves tend to ahve such type features anyway, so this article would still not be able to go as in-depth as they would.
 

dhelmise

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In a way, yeah. Fire types have already been around, where some species have more or less made that type something to prepare for or not (Heatran was a big thing in Gen IV and V, for instance), while fire coverage has also been appreciated to combat steel types and whatnot. Then there's also howthey manage themselves fairly decently defensively, although the SR weakness has never been beneficial, nor are there that many defensive fire mons that stand out (once again, Heatran). Valmanway is still in charge, but I do recommend trying to structure this as an Overview to the type rather than picking out prominent fire mons from all tiers. The tiers themselves tend to ahve such type features anyway, so this article would still not be able to go as in-depth as they would.
I'll get a preview up asap
 

dhelmise

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actually, I think I should do it per-tier, because if I did it your way Bummer, I wouldn't be able to list any LC Pokemon, because they can't help in almost any way in relation to their final forms and legendaries.
 

shrang

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Ubers
Primal Groudon is one of the best attackers in the Ubers metagame, as well as being a great bulky hazard setter. With a great base Attack and Special Attack stat, Primal Groudon can easily run mixed. With access to moves that give it STAB, such as Earthquake, Lava Plume, Fire Punch, and moves that allow it to easily set up such as Thunder Wave and Hone Claws (1), Primal Groudon is easily one of the best Fire-types in Ubers. With its rare typing, Ho-oh has a unique STAB coverage, along with other moves to cover its weaknesses. With Regenerator, base 106 HP, and base 154 Special Defense, Ho-oh is difficult to KO. Despite its mediocre base 90 Defense, Ho-oh has a great base 130 Attack and base 110 Special Attack to allow it to run mixed sets (2), though it's commonly used as a physical attacker. Moves like Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, Earthquake, Earth Power, Charge Beam, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Psychic, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Extrasensory (3), and the uncommon Punishment (3) allow Ho-oh to cover the weaknesses of itself and its teammates without a hassle.
Bolded points
1) Rule of thumb, Hone Claws on anything is bad in Ubers. HC Zekrom used to be ok, but isn't any more either. Groudon has way better set up options in Rock Polish and Swords Dance.
2) Ho-oh never runs mixed sets.
3) None of the bolded moves mentioned are useful, ever. Punishment MAY have some use, but the opportunity cost is not worth it.

I'll edit this with more general things a bit later, I'm kind of busy at the moment, but those are the ones that are the biggest sticking points at the moment.
 

dhelmise

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Bolded points
1) Rule of thumb, Hone Claws on anything is bad in Ubers. HC Zekrom used to be ok, but isn't any more either. Groudon has way better set up options in Rock Polish and Swords Dance.
2) Ho-oh never runs mixed sets.
3) None of the bolded moves mentioned are useful, ever. Punishment MAY have some use, but the opportunity cost is not worth it.

I'll edit this with more general things a bit later, I'm kind of busy at the moment, but those are the ones that are the biggest sticking points at the moment.
for hone claws i meant rock polish muh bad
oh
ok

E: fixed what's listed so far
 

shrang

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Ah, sorry.

Groudon:
- Mention that it's the most splashable Pokemon in the tier. It can fulfill pretty much any role you want it to fulfill.
- Mention that defensively it's a good check to GeoXern and Kyogre, while singlehandedly destroying the viability of multiple Pokemon/sets (Arc-Electric, mono-attacking Arc-Water, etc)
- Mention that offensively it can be extremely difficult to stop due to its coverage and offensive options. RP is probably the most dangerous, as you can't burn or paralyse it, while its checks depend on what moves it uses (between EQ, Stone Edge, D-claw, Fire Blast, SD).

Ho-oh:
- Mention that Ho-oh makes life for stall very difficult. Most cores crumble under the sheer power of LO/CB boosted Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, while Regenerator makes it very hard for you to wear it down with passive damage, provided that Ho-oh has relatively easy Defog support (which it would, because it's hard for stall to pressure the opponent enough to stop from Defogging)
- Mention how it helps defensively - Ho-oh stalemates most Calm Mind Arceus formes at the very least (with the exception of Rockceus), as well as checking GeoXern. It also checks Darkrai.
 

dhelmise

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Ubers
With the variety of Fire-types in the Ubers tier, there are many Pokemon who can fill the spot that you need. However, do you know if it will help your team, or hurt it?

Primal Groudon
Primal Groudon is one of the best attackers in the Ubers metagame, as well as being a great bulky hazard setter. With a great base Attack and Special Attack stat, Primal Groudon can easily run mixed. With access to moves that give it STAB, such as Earthquake, Lava Plume, Fire Punch, and moves that allow it to easily set up such as Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish, Primal Groudon is easily one of the best Fire-types in Ubers. Even though Primal Groudon can be seen as a mostly offensive Pokemon, it can pretty much fulfill pretty much role that's needed. Defensively, Primal Groudon is a good check to Kyogre and Geomancy Xerneas, while also being able to destroy the viability of multiple Pokemon and their sets. Offensively, Primal Groudon can be extremely difficult to stop due to its coverage and offensive options. A Rock Polish set is probably the most dangerous, as you cannot burn nor paralyze Primal Groudon and its checks depend on the moves it uses in the set, varying from Earthquake, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish.

Ho-oh
With its rare typing, Ho-oh has a unique STAB coverage, along with other moves to cover its weaknesses. With Regenerator, base 106 HP, and base 154 Special Defense, Ho-oh is difficult to KO. Despite its mediocre base 90 Defense, Ho-oh has a great base 130 Attack. Moves like Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, and Earthquake allow Ho-oh to cover the weaknesses of itself and its teammates without a hassle. Being the great attacker that it is, Ho-oh makes stall on the foe's side very difficult. Most cores crumble under the sheer power of Life Orb/Choice Band boosted Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, while Regenerator makes it very hard to wear Ho-oh don with passive damage, provided that it has relatively easy Defog support. On the defensive side, Ho-oh stalemates most Calm Mind Arceus formes at the very lease (with the exception of Arceus-Rock), as well as checking Geomancy Xerneas and Darkrai.

----------------------------

ye thats a preview, ill most likely add more onto the paragraphs and include sprites for them, and probably merge some paragraphs into one.

Ex:

(images here)
Ubers
Primal Groudon is one of the best attackers in the Ubers metagame, as well as being a great bulky hazard setter. With a great base Attack and Special Attack stat, Primal Groudon can easily run mixed. With access to moves that give it STAB, such as Earthquake, Lava Plume, Fire Punch, and moves that allow it to easily set up such as Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish, Primal Groudon is easily one of the best Fire-types in Ubers. Even though Primal Groudon can be seen as a mostly offensive Pokemon, it can pretty much fulfill pretty much role that's needed. Defensively, Primal Groudon is a good check to Kyogre and Geomancy Xerneas, while also being able to destroy the viability of multiple Pokemon and their sets. Offensively, Primal Groudon can be extremely difficult to stop due to its coverage and offensive options. A Rock Polish set is probably the most dangerous, as you cannot burn nor paralyze Primal Groudon and its checks depend on the moves it uses in the set, varying from Earthquake, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, Swords Dance, and Rock Polish. With its rare typing, Ho-oh has a unique STAB coverage, along with other moves to cover its weaknesses.

With Regenerator, base 106 HP, and base 154 Special Defense, Ho-oh is difficult to KO. Despite its mediocre base 90 Defense, Ho-oh has a great base 130 Attack. Moves like Sacred Fire, Brave Bird, and Earthquake allow Ho-oh to cover the weaknesses of itself and its teammates without a hassle. Being the great attacker that it is, Ho-oh makes stall on the foe's side very difficult. Most cores crumble under the sheer power of Life Orb/Choice Band boosted Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, while Regenerator makes it very hard to wear Ho-oh don with passive damage, provided that it has relatively easy Defog support. On the defensive side, Ho-oh stalemates most Calm Mind Arceus formes at the very lease (with the exception of Arceus-Rock), as well as checking Geomancy Xerneas and Darkrai.
 
All tiers is going to be way too much and requires solid knowledge in every metagame. A general overview of the type is best. If you don't want to miss out on covering LC mons, then just make this an article about Fire-types in LC. LC's better for covering The Good and The Bad anyway, as people might not be as familiar with which babymons aren't worth using.
 

dhelmise

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All tiers is going to be way too much and requires solid knowledge in every metagame. A general overview of the type is best. If you don't want to miss out on covering LC mons, then just make this an article about Fire-types in LC. LC's better for covering The Good and The Bad anyway, as people might not be as familiar with which babymons aren't worth using.
I'm fine with that, I'll edit the op when I get home
 

antemortem

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Can you write out a couple of examples of what you believe to be good Fire-type LC mons (there are not many lol) so we can gauge your meta knowledge?
 

dhelmise

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actually i dont want to write this if i have to write about a meta i dont really know
 
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