Dubz Community Create-A-Team (CCAT) v1.0 - Submit Revisions!

They were pretty fast changes I agree, I also apologize @Laga, since I pretty much trashed his choices, especially Hitmontop (I was not intending to do yours only, I didn't even notice that, so wow sorry). I typically like trying a lot of things really quickly until I get a team to where I'm comfortable playing it (a matter of playstyle, I assume), so that's just me being my typical jerky self. x_x

I'd also note they weren't intended as proposed changes but as changes I was just trying out (exploring, etc). The post was intended to just be an overview of some things I was testing, and I probably overdid things. However, I should not have posted until I had something accurate to report, so I apologize once again.

However, I am p. adamant about Kyurem. It might be a matter of preference, but Kyurem makes the team very weak to Excadrill, and Hitmontop & Rotom-W are the only things that can switch into it, which means you won't have very much flexibility around sand offense. Now Cresselia may not be a good replacement (so far I like it from a very low amount of testing) but I do want to just mention my thoughts on that. I'm also not keen on the fact that the team has no priority apart from simple utility moves. That is generally the reasoning for my choice of Conkeldurr, but it was very, very premature.

My first two changes I'm definitely sticking with for some testing, I saw a big difference from them. The last two were premature (I liked more speed on Volcarona, but meh), so I'll drop them.
 
I'm going to have to agree that Kyurem is underwhelming after testing :/
I actually got owned by a TR team with sand force exca who had a phenomenal match up against this team.
I think the speed control is best handled by Rotom(like Nollan did, the team hardly needs screen support) and Kyurem could run Substitute over Glaciate and Dragon Pulse>DM with a different spread+Leftovers to take advantage of all the support options shoved into the team.

I will edit this post with playtesting results, but I think those two changes will fix a lot without changing actual Pokemon.


Edits: I didn't find anyone great on the ladder, but this replay shows off Thunder Wave Rotom W and Substitute Kyurem. I think I want Sitrus>E Gem though.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-50028672
Decent replay:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-50058894

Sub>Glaciate and Thunder Wave>Light Screen has made a huge difference for me while not changing everything.
 
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As a quick note on the Rotom set, I ran TWave over Will O' Wisp to help with speed control. I've also considered WoW on several occasions, just because it shuts down Excadrill.
 
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Why not just use Hydro Pump? It is more accurate and ohkos.
I feel like Kyurem being able to hide behind a Sub with Wide Guard, Fake Out or Rage Powder support actually alleviates dragon and Excadrill weakness because it can smack them with SE moves from protection rather than relying on not get KOed by those heavy hitters.
Example: Hitmontop and Kyurem against Excadrill and whatever. Exca Protects to avoid the Fake Out or Close Combat while something else deals with Top. Kyurem subs up, then KOs with EP. Alternatively, if it doesn't Protect you just hit it with Top.
 

Pocket

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I've been doing some laddering with our CCAT without any changes, and I have to say I'm impressed with our final product! Good job guys :D

Kyurem is actually a major player on this team, and Glaciate is a surprisingly clutch support move - I wouldn't replace it if I can help it. I haven't faced any teams with Excadrill, though, so I may be overly optimistic. I do admit that this team is quite susceptible to Fighting- and EdgeQuake abuse, but I think I have gotten the hang of using Rotom-W - Hitmontop - Volcarona core to get around them. I almost never use Light Screen on Rotom-W, so I am hoping that changing this to Will-o-Wisp would be all the change I need.

From my experience, Sash DDTar has actually been the least valuable player atm, since it does not have the bulk to tank hits nor does its DD set up always prove to be potent. However, since it's one of the team's centerpiece, it will stay of course. Does anyone have this problem, or is this just me?
 
I've been doing some laddering with our CCAT without any changes, and I have to say I'm impressed with our final product! Good job guys :D

Kyurem is actually a major player on this team, and Glaciate is a surprisingly clutch support move - I wouldn't replace it if I can help it. I haven't faced any teams with Excadrill, though, so I may be overly optimistic. I do admit that this team is quite susceptible to Fighting- and EdgeQuake abuse, but I think I have gotten the hang of using Rotom-W - Hitmontop - Volcarona core to get around them. I almost never use Light Screen on Rotom-W, so I am hoping that changing this to Will-o-Wisp would be all the change I need.

From my experience, Sash DDTar has actually been the least valuable player atm, since it does not have the bulk to tank hits nor does its DD set up always prove to be potent. However, since it's one of the team's centerpiece, it will stay of course. Does anyone have this problem, or is this just me?
I found that with Light Screen, Intimidate, Rage Powder, Helping Hand and Fake Out that it was better off using an item like Hardstone to boost its power.
It rarely made use of sash(against Rain and EQ), but the added boost means a lot especially after a DD and Helping Hand.
 
I only have one question; what's the lead the team uses? Tornadus and Hitmontop? Or just based on the opponent's team?
 
I've given the team a little spin but it seems to me that we're really rain weak, specifically against threats like pony and thundurus, the former of which can muscle through rotom and breeze past kyurem and the latter of which can happily spam discharge while walling top and torn cold. I have to agree that dd tar has been doing the least, slide and crunch just doesn't cut it for coverage but idk, probably I'm just not playing conservatively enough with kyurem and rotom.
 

Pocket

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Kingler12345, I lead with the two Pokemon that offers me the most offensive pressure. This usually means I lead with either Tornadus or Kyurem. Those two are particularly good leads, because they dgaf about Intimidate. Sometimes Tornadus / Kyurem alone cannot plow through the opposing team (ie Tornadus can't get past Rhyperior). In that case, I would pair it with a Rotom-W so the pair together can open holes into the team's defense. If Tornadus or Kyurem is all I need to destroy the opposing team, I would pair them with Hitmontop or Volcarona for some Fake Out / Wide Guard / Rage Powder protection. If the opponent has an obvious pure TR team, then I would lead with Hitmontop and Tornadus to bust this core (watch out for Mental Herb TR users, though ;x)

spuds4ever - Thundurus shouldn't be a problem, since this team has Kyurem and Tyranitar. Tornadus preys on Keldeo with its faster Acrobatics and Rotom-W is a decent check. Kyurem should be able to tank a hit from Keldeo and kill it off with Draco Meteor. If not, you can always pair Kyurem with Volcarona to redirect Secret Sword with Rage Powder.
 

Pocket

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Alrighty, NixHex is busy with XY research, so I'll be taking over this CCAT project. Please submit any changes to the original team that would improve our line up! You may submit any changes, as long as Volcarona has Rage Powder and Tyranitar has a set-up move. Small, concise changes are preferred over large and drastic revisions.

You will have 2 days to submit your nominations before we start voting on them :] Thank you all for the past contributions thus far!
 
I'm definitely positive on running defensive Rotom-W at this point (everything else is probably my lack of skill when it comes to set up support). However, the typical ChestoRest set I use (if you haven't battled it, you haven't battled me) doesn't quite fit the bill on this team; Pocket's Light Screen Rotom-W plays very well with... Light Screen. So, in true VGC flavor, we'll merge the two into a standard defensive Sitrus Berry Rotom-W as follows:


Rotom-W @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpA / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will O' Wisp
- Light Screen

This spread looks a lot like something I threw together in 5 seconds, but I actually thought/calced it through. 156 SpA ensures Thunderbolt will always OHKO Tornadus, which I figured was a smart place to aim given that our team certainly does not enjoy having to play against it (it holds Hitmontop down while keeping Volcarona in check and making Glaciate slightly risky to use) very much. The rest is put into SpD, as some Intimidate support from Top keeps the lack of defensive investment from becoming an issue, especially when factoring in that Rotom-W outspeeds a lot of common physical attackers (Hitmontop, non-Scarf Tyranitar, bulky Mamoswine, etc) and can burn them before they attack. While it may not seem like much, thanks to the Calm nature, this set lives a Dragon Gem-boosted Draco Meteor off of Timid Latios 75% of the time assuming Light Screen is not up (though I wouldn't recommend the risk unless you are in a desperate situation), just to put its bulk into perspective.

There isn't really anything else I have tested enough to really back up, but I'll list some ideas I had in mind:

-Firstly and foremostly, I was really worried about Excadrill (still am), so the idea came to me of using Sunny Day > Helping Hand on Hitmontop (after my evil Cresselia shenanigans). I never got to testing it though. If this were to happen, Volcarona should be EV'd to outspeed Adamant Excadrill outside of sand, which was basically the whole concept behind using Sunny Day (I heavily recommend Sunny Day on something though, we can't get enough sunlight. Plus I enjoy watching rain teams cry).
-Lum Berry > Sitrus Berry on Volcarona, mostly so it can redirect a status attack safely. This in incredibly subtle and nothing vital to the team, however.
-Hitmontop's build is something I'm not as keen on. Other than the coolio Sunny Day idea, a standard offensive set would be a good idea (imo Fake Out + Wide Guard + Intimidate is support enough, there's no need to go overboard with a bulky spread and Helping Hand). Close Combat on a bulky 'mon means we will have to switch around a lot, something that I've found this team is not very good at doing (quite possibly because it lacks a Steel-type). I also really hate the lack of priority attacks (Fake Out = too weak) on this team. While if you were me you would just switch to Conkeldurr bcuz you are lazy, an offensive Hitmontop switch would provide priority via Sucker Punch (or we could try Feint for some reason, I dunno) while giving Hitmontop better offensive presence.
-We could make Kyurem shiny, because it will look more... shiny that way Actually, scratch that, we're making EVERYTHING shiny :>
 

Laga

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-We could make Kyurem shiny, because it will look more... shiny that way Actually, scratch that, we're making EVERYTHING shiny :>


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So, in all seriousness, I do agree with most suggestions. Lum on Volcarona is a great idea, Offensive Top was always better than bulky (I just wanted to be different ;_;) but I don't think Sunny Day is the much-needed.

I find that Rotom-W + Hitmontop is plenty of counter to Excadrill, especially since Top has Wide Guard. Sunny Day would also be kind of redundant since we are running Sandstorm and a Rotom-W.

But now that you mention Sunny Day on something with a Ttar on this team, I kind of thought to myself; hey, why the hell are we running sand. Nothing on this team like Sandstorm, and Tyranitar has a Focus Sash, so it doesn't give a shit about the SpD boost anyway. What am I suggesting? I am suggesting that I give Unnerve Ttar a spin and that you guys should too. Unnerve is actually a very nice ability, since so many Pokemon are running resist-, Lum-, and (mostly) Sitrus-berries these days. Let's face it

Sand isn't doing anything for this team anyways...
 
But now that you mention Sunny Day on something with a Ttar on this team, I kind of thought to myself; hey, why the hell are we running sand. Nothing on this team like Sandstorm, and Tyranitar has a Focus Sash, so it doesn't give a shit about the SpD boost anyway. What am I suggesting? I am suggesting that I give Unnerve Ttar a spin and that you guys should too. Unnerve is actually a very nice ability, since so many Pokemon are running resist-, Lum-, and (mostly) Sitrus-berries these days. Let's face it

Sand isn't doing anything for this team anyways...
I can see the logic here, but imo sand is important for two reasons. Firstly, it allows us to control the weather to at least some extent. This can be vital for holding rain teams back somewhat, but more importantly, it means hail teams aren't going to break the Sash, which I think is very important given they have seen some usage among a lot of the high level players. Secondly, it adds in some residual damage each turn, which helps make up for the fact that Tyranitar still can't OHKO all that much at +1.

I might also add that the Special Defense boost is still useful, as it means you can sometimes set up more than once. Unnerve it certainly a possibility, though, and I'd recommend some people try it out to see how it works (recommending something without testing it out is hardly the way to go about things jk I do that all the time).

One last thing I would like to address is my opinion on how the team functions (this is fairly off topic so sorry). It is perfectly solid in practice and can work great sometimes, but I found the team was a bit too focused on supporting Tyranitar (and support in general) often. We started with some Rage Powder support; then added in Light Screen; added in Taunt; added in Wide Guard, Helping Hand, and Fake Out; and finally added in some speed control. While this is certainly a plausible way to go about things, I personally found the team struggled immensely in terms of working around counters, simply because it was hard to bring in our offensive Pokemon (Tornadus, Volcarona and Tyranitar; Rotom-W was very useful because it could hit things to some degree and its common array of resistances allowed it to switch in & out more flexibly). Imo, this sort of team works much better if you can switch around more flexibly, as that way you can safely keep Tyranitar around in case of Breloom/Hitmontop/etc and easily adapt from sweeping to supporting efficiently. In my run with the team, I found that more often than not my options with the team were limited and I had to play in a more "cramped" style (let's face it, that is not the way I enjoy playing ;-;). While we aren't supposed to suggest massive changes, in retrospect it may have been better to use something with more all-around bulk, such as Cresselia (or something like Heatran or Scizor that packs a load of resistances). That's just my view on the team, I can definitely see why people would disagree with it (srsly tho we should use standard things for the sake of being boring).
 

Pocket

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Unnerve TTar sounds cool, but not having the ability to immediately change weather can be a bitch if we are facing Rain and Sun teams. Although rare, a good Drought Team will plow through this team without Sandstream to control Fire. Rain teams would probably even be worse than before, since we're now relying on Hitmontop's Sunny Day to remove them. Basically what Nollan said.

I have mixed feelings about Sunny Day Hitmontop. Nerfing Water-type moves is nice for the team, and Volcarona appreciates the boost in its Heat Wave. It will also provide us yet another tool to deal with Excadrill. Rotom-W's Hydro Pump gets nerfed, though, but it's temporary. I need to test this out to come to a conclusion.

Not a fan of Lum Berry Volcarona tbh. When I played with this team, Volcarona's bulk and Sitrus Berry actually came in handy a few times to take more abuse for the team, especially when sand is up to whittle down its health. Sleep is the only status that completely hinders Volcarona from supporting the team with Rage Powder, but Volcarona paired with Tornadus or Kyurem can take care of the common sleep inducers easily anyways. I can see why Lum would be useful, but I believe Sitrus offers more atm. I would have to play more to come to a more decisive decision (especially with the speedier spread Nollan suggested).

Bulky Rotom-W is a good alternative, especially if Nollan is suggesting to make Hitmontop offensive. I wouldn't remove Protect, though - I'd use Protect > Light Screen.
 
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