Doubles Overview, Benchmarks, and Q&A Thread—Read before asking!

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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I have questions this doesn't address.

What the purpose of suspecting and banning? Is it to prevent over powered pokemon, with few checks and counters, being thrown onto seeming every other team, which make the meta game stale, unoriginal, and un-fun?
If so should we consider banning certain 3 pokemon cores for the same reason? If not why?
Before you pick the easy, small minded answer and say there are checks to every core, the same goes to the pokemon we ban. (ever heard of an ice move?)(btw, on a side note keldeo+skymin is ban worthy but not skymin on its own, imo)

It has never been done by another meta and the only meta that would make since to try is doubles for obvious reasons.

Hypothetically if the core of Lando-T, Thundy, and mega-Kang got suspected and banned. (I believe this core is the most overpowering)
Ignoring you reasons for wanting to try or not wanting to try this idea; would the effect be bad to our meta or beneficial? And why? And does your answer conflict with suspecting individual pokemon?

Imo banning some 3 (even 2) pokemon cores would in the short run see a lot of new teams being built and in the long run a healthier meta where you would see a lot less match ups where 5 of 6 pokemon are the same.
Additionally in the short run our community would become more active with suspecting. And we might even gain more active players from doing that suspecting .
I know Arctic has talked about this briefly, he probably has some input.

As for the idea itself, I think it's bad. I don't want to be into teambuilding and think "oh I can't put this mon here because it's not compatible with x y and z" kind of like making a set with a pokemon then realizing that the nature doesn't correspond with the moves which is one of the most dissapointing things. Sure some cores are popular but that doesn't make them banworthy either. In addition, "selectively" banning, for lack of a better word, specific interactions sounds unadapative to the meta (it's possible to adapt to every core. See diancie vs chalk, M-Aero's brief rise back when Skymin/Keldeo/Talon was popular, thundurus for jirachi/mence, various sun checks ie talonburd). Part of having a central meta necessitates creativity and innovation by itself. By outright banning a core, inevitably it seems to me more along the lines of "I don't like playing/preparing for this core" rather than "this specific interaction is overreaching in the current metagame", the latter of which I don't believe applies to any cores at the moment.
 

thinkin

Banned deucer.
loool kangasacan balance is nust a playstyle i really dont know why the fuck would you want to ban it, like its decent but its just as good as most other archetypes. whats next? banning diancie in dragon fairy steel cores? abomasnow + a trick room setter?
 

talkingtree

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Gkj1213, The most popular playstyle right now is probably bulky offense - Doubles OU is a fast-paced metagame due to the number of threats that teams have to prepare for and four different moves being made each turn. Other viable playstyles include hyper offense, weather offense (primarily rain and sun, but sand and hail work as well), and trick room. Stall isn't really viable here.
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
I know Arctic has talked about this briefly, he probably has some input.

As for the idea itself, I think it's bad. I don't want to be into teambuilding and think "oh I can't put this mon here because it's not compatible with x y and z" kind of like making a set with a pokemon then realizing that the nature doesn't correspond with the moves which is one of the most dissapointing things. Sure some cores are popular but that doesn't make them banworthy either. In addition, "selectively" banning, for lack of a better word, specific interactions sounds unadapative to the meta (it's possible to adapt to every core. See diancie vs chalk, M-Aero's brief rise back when Skymin/Keldeo/Talon was popular, thundurus for jirachi/mence, various sun checks ie talonburd). Part of having a central meta necessitates creativity and innovation by itself. By outright banning a core, inevitably it seems to me more along the lines of "I don't like playing/preparing for this core" rather than "this specific interaction is overreaching in the current metagame", the latter of which I don't believe applies to any cores at the moment.

Addressing your first point - Considering how the community has only banned 2 pokemon it would be unlikely that you see more than a couple cores, if any at all, banned from play. Just like you can remember that mega-salamence is banned you'll know that skymin+keldeo+talon is banned as a core.

on your second point. I address this in my first post, the same holds true for pokemon we have banned, there are counters for mega salamence and skymin (even ho-oh and mega mewtwo y), just like there are for chalk, thalk, skymin+keldeo+talon. So unless you are for un-banning the pokemon we have banned now then your argument for not wanting to suspect cores is weak.

you have a valid point in that people may vote ban because they do not like playing/preparing for that core; but remember that kang was suspected twice and skymin was only banned by a narrow margin. so people with that mind set would not be in majority and from our previous experience with suspecting that has not been the case, there is no reason it would change for suspecting cores.

again considering how conservative the community has been keeping pokemon un-banned after suspecting them this idea would not radically change the meta like you may think.
secondly the idea of suspecting cores make more since in doubles than any other meta; we should have different approaches to maintaining a healthy meta game than singles; I think this idea would be really unique and beneficial.
 
Apparently removing a bunch of good cores that a handful of people don't like does not drastically change the meta.

How about we ban Thundurus+Landorus-T+Kangaskhan?

Who says we can't just switch to like running THALC or THALD since we can't use Kangaskhan anymore? What about THALG and CHALC and all of the other variants of THALK that we could use just because Kangaskhan can't fit into the equation?
I think Landorus-T says something about that because it literally checks every mon in THALC and THALD as well as the two lesser ones that I mentioned aside from Landorus-T and Amoonguss (unless the A's are Aegislash in which they have to be WG in order to not instalose). Aegislash also becomes increasingly more common because it gets Wide Guard to block all of the EQ's and Rock Slides but it's a pitiful stop to Stone Edge Landorus-T and can't even switch in to EQ. Mega Kangaskhan declines a hell of a lot in usage thanks to people wanting to use Genies of Healthy Meta and Aegislash everywhere, and Bisharp sort of goes up a lot to check Aegislash and have a chance to beat Landorus-T with LO Sucker Punch. Scrafty even would gain usage because it can beat Aegislash and Bisharp and provides the Fake Out that the Genies don't have, also increasing Mega Kangaskhan's descent (don't get me wrong though it will still be a good mon it just won't like the meta's conditions at all). Also, if you take a look at all of those previous lines, you'll notice that a) I included the best check to those mons according to viability, and b) it's an incredibly HO way to check everything aside from Aegi being a sitting duck.
Eventually we'd end up having such a chaotic meta thanks to Landorus-T that we'd either ban it or get rid of the dumb Kanga+Thundy+Lando-T thing and change the meta back to what it was. Or I'm just bad at theorymonning.
Edit: lol i'm bad at theorymonning I forgot about Keldeo and Rotom-W and considered Aegi a better check but considering those to be the best Landorus-T checks that's pretty HO. Also I guess Keldeo loses out on a lot because it can't check Landorus-T+Kangaskhan.

Stop complaining that your teams can't beat a certain playstyle when it isn't centralizing, broken, or just stupid. Banning something because you can't figure out how to beat it does nothing but restrict everyone's teambuilding and remove fundamental parts of the meta game.

Also this is the wrong thread to be discussing this altogether; you should be using the DOU Suspect thread (Stage 3 is our most recent one and it is in this forum). I would like to suggest that you don't post this there because nobody is going to agree with it, but you probably won't listen anyway so go ahead I guess.
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
first off you completely missed where I said after SUSPECTING it would be unlikely that many, IF ANY, cores got banned.

that big paragraph would be a good argument for voting no after the SUSPECT and I think you would find people agreeing with you.
do you feel the same about skymin+keldeo+talonflame? as opposed to just banning skymin? maybe not

I agree banning something you cant figure out how to beat is stupid and if you vote to ban after a suspect test for that reason your vote shouldnt count. you would have to bring a legitimate argument like any other suspect test.


you are acting like I am in favor or my idea is in favor of banning a whole bunch of core that would drastically change the meta.
I thought it was clear; if not now you know I am in favor of suspect testing cores not straight out banning what ever I dislike
 
How often do the scores on the ladder reset? Is it scheduled, or does Smogon reset them on a random basis? Just wondering when the best time(s) to start laddering are.
 

Arcticblast

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VCrakeV there is no schedule and it is not random; ladder resets have only happened when the ladder is being upgraded or actually breaks.

Basically, don't expect it to reset unless there's a site-wide policy change.
 
"With 48 HP EVs and 16 Defense EVs, Mega Charizard X can survive Adamant Landorus-T's Earthquake after factoring in spread damage. "

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 48 HP / 16 Def Mega Charizard X: 350-414 (113.2 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 48 HP / 16 Def Mega Charizard X: 294-348 (95.1 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

That quote was taken directly from its Doubles analysis. Can someone care to explain that?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 48 HP / 16 Def Mega Charizard X: 260-308 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah it's called reading the entire sentence and/or clicking "doubles" on the damage calc
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
the real question is why you would ever EV for that benchmark considering you ohko with blitz if it switches in on a DD, and you really shouldnt EV for defensive benchmarks ever anyways on something that uses Flare Blitz for STAB
 
So, after spending about two years in competitive Pokemon, I've decided to move on from OU to Doubles as my main tier of play, for multiple reasons but mainly just because my brain likes playing the faster-paced games of doubles, and the extra hint of chaos that comes with the extra decisions being stacked on per turn. However, while I have a decent amount of experience behind my belt (read: not cancer ladder player), I still have a lot of questions about the tier. I won't list them here - there's too many, and they're too specific - but something that I've been looking for is someone with the right balance of skill, willingness and free time to kind of take me under their wing, so to speak. I heavily dislike Tutoring 101, since it feels almost rushed/forced, which is why I'm not signing up there. Of course, nobody needs to take me under their wing, I would just heavily appreciate it.

As for questions that I'm willing to put here:
-How viable are non-Scarf, non-LO Landog sets?
-Is Swagger Thundy ever seen here? I know it's popular in VGC because lol @ getting HP Ice, but I've never seen it used up to now.
-Viability of Sludge Bomb on Amoonguss?
-Can Latios run more in its third moveslot than just HP Ground/Roost/Tailwind viably?
-Porygon2 seems a bit strange to me. I know it's meant as a Trick Room setter; would it be replacing Cresselia or Reuniclus on TR, or the secondary TR setting slot? It's not sleep-immune due to lack of safety goggles, so that role would have to be pushed to the second setter. Now the second setter has all the responsibility on it, having the sleep immunity and the normal resistance/immunity, meaning that unless it can afford to regain its health like Jellicent, it's going to be whittled down very quickly. Also asking about the viability of P2 outside TR - mainly using Icy Wind or Thunder Wave over Trick Room.
-What happened to Togekiss? Last time I was here, it was considered pretty darn viable. Did it just get the meta-shaft, or did people just realize it sucked?
-Why is Aromatisse considered so bad? is it really that much of a deadweight after setting up TR? I guess the real question here is: how important is it for TR setters to have offensive presence?
-Has the Skymin ban influenced the metagame at all?
-I've been thinking about trying out M-Maw in a non-TR setting. From what I've gained, MMaw is borderline viable because 1.) it's a TR mon and 2.) it's the last mega you want to use on TR that's a TR mon, and being shafted by amoon doesn't help. But I figured that the reason it's the last mon you want on TR is because it doesn't mesh well with the standard building archetype of TR. So, by putting it in an enviroment where I try and use Pokemon that use other means of speed control and with much less support stress, I figured it might be possible to get a team structure that would be able to comfortably accept MMaw, unlike TR. So my question is: Should I attempt this, or is it doomed from the start?
 

thinkin

Banned deucer.
-How viable are non-Scarf, non-LO Landog sets?
-Is Swagger Thundy ever seen here? I know it's popular in VGC because lol @ getting HP Ice, but I've never seen it used up to now.
-Viability of Sludge Bomb on Amoonguss?
-Can Latios run more in its third moveslot than just HP Ground/Roost/Tailwind viably?
-Porygon2 seems a bit strange to me. I know it's meant as a Trick Room setter; would it be replacing Cresselia or Reuniclus on TR, or the secondary TR setting slot? It's not sleep-immune due to lack of safety goggles, so that role would have to be pushed to the second setter. Now the second setter has all the responsibility on it, having the sleep immunity and the normal resistance/immunity, meaning that unless it can afford to regain its health like Jellicent, it's going to be whittled down very quickly. Also asking about the viability of P2 outside TR - mainly using Icy Wind or Thunder Wave over Trick Room.
-What happened to Togekiss? Last time I was here, it was considered pretty darn viable. Did it just get the meta-shaft, or did people just realize it sucked?
-Why is Aromatisse considered so bad? is it really that much of a deadweight after setting up TR? I guess the real question here is: how important is it for TR setters to have offensive presence?
-Has the Skymin ban influenced the metagame at all?
-I've been thinking about trying out M-Maw in a non-TR setting. From what I've gained, MMaw is borderline viable because 1.) it's a TR mon and 2.) it's the last mega you want to use on TR that's a TR mon, and being shafted by amoon doesn't help. But I figured that the reason it's the last mon you want on TR is because it doesn't mesh well with the standard building archetype of TR. So, by putting it in an enviroment where I try and use Pokemon that use other means of speed control and with much less support stress, I figured it might be possible to get a team structure that would be able to comfortably accept MMaw, unlike TR. So my question is: Should I attempt this, or is it doomed from the start?
1. there is bulky leftovers set, that survives two kang returns after one protect, you could usr that if you want a more solid talonflame check.
2. most common thundurus set for now is:
tbolt, flash cannon, twave, protect with life orb, it really doesnt have room for swagger. you could see that on bulky thundurus variants that give up on hp ice, but these arent much used.
3. sbomb is a fine option on amoongus on the teams that have other ways dealing with diancie, taunt keldeo and terrakion
4. you could run substitute, but most of the time its better to run tailwind/hp ground + substitute over protect. there is no reason to give up tailwind on your lati if your team is fine vs heatran.
5. dont use fullroom
7. there is no reason to use it. you want your tr setteres to do anything after setting up trick room it doesnt provide any good support/offensive presence.
9. you should try semiroom, most of the time you are better off using the top mons like diancie or aegislash in that spot.
 

ryo yamada2001

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1. there is bulky leftovers set, that survives two kang returns after one protect, you could usr that if you want a more solid talonflame check.
2. most common thundurus set for now is:
tbolt, flash cannon, twave, protect with life orb, it really doesnt have room for swagger. you could see that on bulky thundurus variants that give up on hp ice, but these arent much used.
3. sbomb is a fine option on amoongus on the teams that have other ways dealing with diancie, taunt keldeo and terrakion
4. you could run substitute, but most of the time its better to run tailwind/hp ground + substitute over protect. there is no reason to give up tailwind on your lati if your team is fine vs heatran.
5. dont use fullroom
7. there is no reason to use it. you want your tr setteres to do anything after setting up trick room it doesnt provide any good support/offensive presence.
9. you should try semiroom, most of the time you are better off using the top mons like diancie or aegislash in that spot.
i'd like to mention that using recover on latios is a good move, and that a lot of thundurus also use a more bulky set with thunderbolt, hp ice, taunt and thunder wave
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
what the fuck porygon2 is a great trick room setter it's a defensive setter that doesn't get shit on steels/aegislash and can break those subs

It's like cm cress except you don't have to set up and you're still bulky as fuck, minus goggles

porygon outside tr can work but non-tr tends to be alright against steels/aegis for the most part, which is porygon's main niche

mawile on non-tr is interesting considering it loses to so many common tr checks (talon, heatran, amoonguss, landot) I ran some joke grav team with dynamic punch because fighting coverage is just so good on mawile but dark/fairy is pretty good too
 
Stall isn't viable in doubles because, like you said, there are two mons you have to deal with on the other side of the field. While you may be able to keep one at bay (highly unlikely because it's not hard to switch to something that would put your opponent in a better position) , there is a good chance the other is going to take you down while you're trying to stall things out. Doubles is also a relatively fast meta, so there isn't much room for a mon on your team that can only toxic stall and hope for the best.
 

talkingtree

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the most successful doubles stall team ive ever seen was made by Lady Gaga, KyleCole has a copy if u want but it still never won anything and is pretty old now
iirc it actually won the no Protect minitour - which in a lot of ways makes sense because many of the frail powerhouses rely on tactical protects. However, I don't remember much about how it fared outside of that different meta
 

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