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I'd make the nature Adamant on the Assault Vest set. Conkeldurr really needs the power boost given its weak coverage attacks and need for Drain Punch recovery, and it doesn't really need to run Careful. I've been using AV Conk extensively and I've never felt the need to run Careful; Conk still lives through almost every super effective special attack as is.
One of the pros of AV Conk is its bulk + power + priority, and you need Adamant and Atk investment to not be easy to wall. With max Atk and Adamant Drain Punch becomes much more effective and you are practically increasing your bulk by increasing your damage output. I would use the same EV spread with the all-out attacker set, unless some extra special bulk is needed to tank specific special attacks.
No, AV Conk needs the same spread but Adamant > Careful. I've used it to death and back and it never ceases to amaze me. Definitely my favourite Conk set, and I'd argue it to be the first set listed.
If you're going for a specially defensive spread with an Adamant nature, use 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD. This hits a jump point in Atk, which gives Conkeldurr a bit more power and is a slightly more efficient use of its EVs. Unless, of course, you need max SpD to survive a specific attack.
EDIT: By the way, you have Assault Vest on the Bulk Up set. This needs to be changed to Leftovers.
I would just use 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe Adamant for AV Conk. It is what I have been using.
Poison Jab needs go be on the All Out and possibly on the AV. In fact I already question your All Out Attacker moveset. I would think Drain Punch / Rock Slide / Ice Punch are almost musts with ThunderPunch, Mach Punch, and Poison Jab for slot 4. I guess Fire Punch has some merit but it's best to leave Aegislash to better mons.
Set 2 should be Drain Punch / Knock Off as mandatory with Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, Stone Edge, Mach Punch, and Poison Jab surrounding slots 3 and 4. Guts should also be a mandatory ability - it makes Conkeldurr scary despite being semi-counterproductive.
Bulk Up can probably include an attacking move slashed with Mach Punch. While BU + MP is great, extra coverage while beating Jellicent, Gliscor, and co are almost a must.
I would just use 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe Adamant for AV Conk. It is what I have been using.
Poison Jab needs go be on the All Out and possibly on the AV. In fact I already question your All Out Attacker moveset. I would think Drain Punch / Rock Slide / Ice Punch are almost musts with ThunderPunch, Mach Punch, and Poison Jab for slot 4. I guess Fire Punch has some merit but it's best to leave Aegislash to better mons.
Set 2 should be Drain Punch / Knock Off as mandatory with Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, Stone Edge, Mach Punch, and Poison Jab surrounding slots 3 and 4. Guts should also be a mandatory ability - it makes Conkeldurr scary despite being semi-counterproductive.
Bulk Up can probably include an attacking move slashed with Mach Punch. While BU + MP is great, extra coverage while beating Jellicent, Gliscor, and co are almost a must.
Thunder Punch is necessary for hitting Skarmory (and to a lesser extent, Slowbro and Jellicent) for a 2HKO. That's part of what makes this set as great of a partner for physical attackers as it is because it lures in physical walls and kills them easily with its coverage moves. Rock Slide doesn't really provide much coverage that Thunder Punch doesn't already give to more relevant threats, imo.
Thunder Punch is necessary for hitting Skarmory (and to a lesser extent, Slowbro and Jellicent) for a 2HKO. That's part of what makes this set as great of a partner for physical attackers as it is because it lures in physical walls and kills them easily with its coverage moves. Rock Slide doesn't really provide much coverage that Thunder Punch doesn't already give to more relevant threats, imo.
Rock Slide is Conkeldurr's best option versus Charizard X and Rotom-H. It's not like a shit option. Bear in mind I am not denying ThunderPunch as an option, but Rock Slide still has merits.
After doing some testing last night, I've found that a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD seems to be sufficient on the Assault Vest set. It could survive insanely powerful special attacks, even some which had STAB and were SE, whilst still having the power to be an immediate threat.
Here's a few calcs to prove this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 210-248 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 142-169 (40.3 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 217-256 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 128-152 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 314-372 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 157-187 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 211-250 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 124-147 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 237-280 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 306-360 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And so on.
For comparison:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 201-237 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 133-156 (32.1 - 37.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 198-234 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 116-138 (28 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 288-342 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 142-169 (34.2 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 190-226 (45.8 - 54.5%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 112-133 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 217-256 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 276-326 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see, Conkeldurr has enough special bulk to withstand what it needs to pretty damn well, even without 252/252 Calm. Although the latter does have the advantage of taking special hits even better, it sometimes lacks the power to be able to KO the things it wants to be beating, so 4/252 Adamant is probably better after all. I will make a note that you can be guaranteed to survive a Timid Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice at full HP if you run 88 HP EVs, although this is only useful if you run Poison Jab so you can OHKO back. Nonetheless, I'll still mention 252/252 with Calm nature in the analysis as an alternative, as it does have the general advantage of having more bulk in general (including more physical bulk).
I've updated the move options for the different sets. I've slashed Rock Slide after ThunderPunch on the Sheer Force set - getting coverage on Rotom-H, Mega Charizard X and Volcarona whilst still covering Talonflame and Gyarados is great, though as it has been mentioned, missing out on coverage on Skarmory/Jellicent could be an issue.
Although it doesn't get a boost from Sheer Force or Iron Fist, I've decided that Earthquake is the optimum coverage move if running ThunderPunch. Not only does it cover Aegislash without having to worry about King's Shield mind games, it also covers Mawile, Klefki and Mega Charizard X - so between ThunderPunch and Earthquake, most common Fairy types in OU are covered, bar the mono-Fairies such as Sylveon, Clefable, Florges etc - ThunderPunch hits Azumarill and Togekiss, whilst Earthquake hits the aforementioned Steel/Fairy types. Poison Jab is an appealing option if you're not running ThunderPunch because of its ability to deal with Fairy types in general, including Azumarill, which is arguably the most relevant Fairy in OU right now. Fire Punch is also a very solid option for its ability to simultaneously hurt Skarmory and Aegislash, the latter whom walls if you do not run either Fire Punch or Earthquake at least.
I'd say there isn't really an ideal set though - Conkeldurr can't cover everything at once, and hence you need to carefully select what you want to cover based on the needs of your team. Only Drain Punch and Ice Punch are mandatory - you can pick almost any combination of ThunderPunch/Rock Slide/Fire Punch/Earthquake/Poison Jab for the last two slots (excluding obvious redundancies such as ThunderPunch + Rock Slide). I've changed my mind about Mach Punch being important and so removed it for now - it's pretty weak anyway without boosting your Attack. Besides, not being able to pick off weakened, faster threats is less of an issue than missing out on necessary coverage in my opinion, especially considering this set's role is to break down defensive cores and not to sweep. However, if the Q/C team request it, I'm happy to add it back on.
I've kept Mach Punch on the AV set but slashed it last because although it is still pretty weak, it could help pick off something if your initial attack on them didn't KO. As this set isn't designed to wall break, having full coverage isn't so critical. However, Stone Edge and Poison Jab are most likely superior options, both of which cover relevant threats - the former hurting Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Rotom-H and Gyarados, whereas the latter targets Fairy types including Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir etc. However, I think Mach Punch is important on the Bulk Up set, because it means that this Conkeldurr set can be more threatening to offensive teams, where it can be revenge killed by something faster. I will make a note in the analysis that running both Ice Punch and Knock Off is an option if you don't require Mach Punch though.
Is there going to be any mention of a Flame Orb set w/ Facade & Payback? I don't know how useful it is competitively but Conkeldurr is so damn strong with it. Mach Punch also gets pretty awesome, too.
I dont think anything but guts should be considered for the assault vest set, as of now hte meta game is littered with will-o-wisp spamming pokemon and ESPECIALLY the assault vest can beat countless will-o-wisp users, some of which may try to check it with Wow. This list is including but not limited to Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Jellicent, Gengar, Ninetales, Sableye, Heatran, and basically every other wisp user. The absolute profile of pokemon that guts let you manhandle is quite an upgrade, and imo, it should be the only thing slashed onto that set.
The all out attacker is a bit more hit and run, immediate power is preferred.
I really like the classic 252 hp/252 attack/ 4 spd on av conk. I like that the AV still makes the conks bulk very respectable while the hp investment makes it so his normal def side isn't being neglected. plus he can still survive very powerful stab attacks on his spc def side with this spread
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 288-338 (69.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also I would make mach punch the first option for that last move slot since it nets plenty of kills for conk while he is at low %. plus with speed like conks priority can be insanely important.
Lastly I would maybe add Power up punch on as a slash for that last slot, since any boost to that 140 base stat can be very useful.
edit: Also his assault vest set should be called something like "dressed for the occasion"
I thought Mach Punch is a staple for Conkeldurr, even for an all out attacker set. It is the most conservative option against Excadrill and Bisharp since you do not risk a flinch with Iron Head by trying to Drain Punch it. I think an explanation is needed to justify the removal of Mach Punch although the Life Orb + Sheer Force/Iron Fist or Status Orb + Guts can enough secure some KO without the need for the residual chip damage from Mach Punch.
One of the pros of AV Conk is its bulk + power + priority, and you need Adamant and Atk investment to not be easy to wall. With max Atk and Adamant Drain Punch becomes much more effective and you are practically increasing your bulk by increasing your damage output. I would use the same EV spread with the all-out attacker set, unless some extra special bulk is needed to tank specific special attacks.
By the way considering the current meta I would honestly put Assault Vest > All-Out > Bulk Up as the set order. Also:
I thought Mach Punch is a staple for Conkeldurr, even for an all out attacker set. It is the most conservative option against Excadrill and Bisharp since you do not risk a flinch with Iron Head by trying to Drain Punch it. I think an explanation is needed to justify the removal of Mach Punch although the Life Orb + Sheer Force/Iron Fist or Status Orb + Guts can enough secure some KO without the need for the residual chip damage from Mach Punch.
Mach Punch should arguably be slashed in first on all of the sets, but it is definitely a move that can be dropped. While Mach Punch is solid in terms of what it can do, one can't deny that it's really weak. For example Life Orb Mach Punch from Adamant 252 Attack Conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And AV sets:
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 Close Combat OHKOes 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr and +2 Flash Cannon won't KO 4 HP / 252 SpD Conk with AV.
By the way the best way to check Mega Lucario is through Toxic Orb / Flame Orb with Guts. Mach Punch does 90% minimum. 56% chance to OHKO. If you're burned or poisoned you can also ensure AV / LO Conk will KO Mega Luke too.
Anyway, Mach Punch is mainly for Mega Lucario and, to some extent, Excadrill (though honestly it's better to Drain Punch the fucker since he has a shitload of health). Mach Punch should be a primary slash; especially on the AV set since its main goal is absorbing status and taking attacks like a champ; however, Mach Punch is definitely the weakest link for moves in both of those movesets (as far as being a primary slash). Hence why all movesets should have Mach Punch first but other options next to it (as Poison Jab / ThunderPunch / Stone Edge can do very well for Conkeldurr).
Also DarkBlazeR I know it's only been a little while since you posted but I wanted to know the update on this. If you feel that you don't have time for it or don't want to write it anymore let me know and I can take over. Else, just double checking and making sure that you're still working on it.
Yeah but Mach Punch is never meant for sweeping (besides weakened end game). Drain Punch without any boosts far too often can't OHKO even with full Attack. However, it usually puts them right in Mach Punch KO range, allowing you to avoid damage altogether the second turn. Often than not, Conk is better off trying to tank a hit and restore with Drain Punch and finish with Mach Punch, he's insanely bulky, and Mach Punch helps him avoid a lot of unnecessary damage. On a Bulk Up set it is possibly the least useful since it is possible to boost to insanely bulky levels and Drain Punch and Leftovers help a lot, but on an Assault Vest set where you are foregoing means of boosting your own power, unless you're crazy to use Burn Orb + Assault Vest or something, Mach Punch is necessary for those clinch KOs.
EDIT: Having two items is obviously impossible so ignore the Burn Orb + Assault Vest combo lol
The problem is Dark + Fighting does not have the necessary coverage like it had last gen. Were Fairy-types non-existent I would 100% agree. With them now things are different.
Running Poison Jab or ThunderPunch prevents Pokemon like Clefable or Azumarill from switching in. Sure you can use Knock Off and switch out, but Poison Jab prevents them from switching almost-freely. ThunderPunch allows Conkeldurr to safely 2HKO some of the bulkier Water-types such as Vaporeon while doing a hefty amount of damage to Skarmory and said Azumarill.
Consider what I am saying like this: though Mach Punch is the best move in slot 4, it is also the most flexible. You want Drain Punch and Knock Off for sure. Ice Punch is also huge to leave absent on the set. Mach Punch has great utility, but for some teams puncturing some threats are also useful.
That assault vest move listing is pretty much ideal, though, I think poison jab is superior. Against skarm you basically win by virtue of Drain Punch spam, and patching up the bit of Clefable, Sylveon, etc weakness is pretty helpful. Sure, you can beat Vaporeon with thunderpunch, but again drain punch spam, and using Vap's scald burns against it (I cant overstate that guts is the best ability fo this set) ends in a stalemate at the very least and if you switch out youre going to be at full health. Thunderpunch lets you beat gyarados, but it seems like mega Gyarados is a bit more popular and well equipped for the current metagame so drain punch could do juut as well.
AC mention that Mach Punch could be dropped pending on the team's ideal needs and wants and that can satisfy me (I'm just saying I don't completely feel Mach Punch is stupid clutch but it is great). Mention Thunder Punch as a way for Conkeldurr to completely muscle through Bulky Water-types but in most cases Ice Punch is superior.
Actually I'm going to do the OP a favor:
Assault Vest
########
name: Assault Vest
move 1: Drain Punch
move 2: Mach Punch
move 3: Knock Off
move 4: Ice Punch / Thunder Punch
ability: Guts
item: Assault Vest
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
This should be set #1. It is by far the best set for Conkeldurr in this meta.
- Drain Punch is obviously necessary
- Ice Punch is nifty for the main Pokemon that resist Drain Punch
- I know this seems really adamant of me but I think Poison Jab is necessary for slot 3. You really scare the shit out of Clefable for example:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's just sexy.
- Earthquake is mainly for Aegislash since Fire Punch means gambling King's Shield. Unfortunately. >_>;
- Thunder Punch is Conk's best tool against Slowbro, Azumarill, and others. Thunder Punch can actually 2HKO Skarmory too.
-- Speaking of Skarmory I think it is relevant to mention using max Speed on Conkeldurr. I know what everyone is thinking "are you fucking retarded?" But think about it - you're outspeeding Skarmory with it most of the time and you also become faster than a lot of Pokemon that could possibly check / counter you (remember that asshat Clefable? I wonder if she likes two Poison Jabs to the face without doing damage back to you!)
- Mach Punch is still sick but because of what Conkeldurr can really do to bulkier / troublesome Pokemon it is really difficult to decide if it deserves the main slash this time. I really do like the thought of Mach Punch in emergency KO situations, though.
I think we all need to discuss Sheer Force LO Conk set. It is by far the one moveset that has so many good options but four moveslots really limit it.
I can't argue with the Assault Vest set, maybe a little more HP from SpD but that's minor. Also, I think it's currently its best set, should really be #1. Nothing outclasses Guts currently.
I can't argue with the Assault Vest set, maybe a little more HP from SpD but that's minor. Also, I think it's currently its best set, should really be #1. Nothing outclasses Guts currently.
I can't really think of why you would want to invest into HP over SpD consider Conk's HP is already massive and you get a huge boost from investing into SpD alone thanks to Assault Vest.
Actually Sheer Force is the one moveset that perplexes me - and it's because there are so many viable combinations for it.
- Earthquake is mainly for Aegislash since Fire Punch means gambling King's Shield. Unfortunately. >_>;
- Thunder Punch is Conk's best tool against Slowbro, Azumarill, and others. Thunder Punch can actually 2HKO Skarmory too.
-- Speaking of Skarmory I think it is relevant to mention using max Speed on Conkeldurr. I know what everyone is thinking "are you fucking retarded?" But think about it - you're outspeeding Skarmory with it most of the time and you also become faster than a lot of Pokemon that could possibly check / counter you (remember that asshat Clefable? I wonder if she likes two Poison Jabs to the face without doing damage back to you!)
- Mach Punch is still sick but because of what Conkeldurr can really do to bulkier / troublesome Pokemon it is really difficult to decide if it deserves the main slash this time. I really do like the thought of Mach Punch in emergency KO situations, though.
I think we all need to discuss Sheer Force LO Conk set. It is by far the one moveset that has so many good options but four moveslots really limit it.
A high speed Conkeldurr would take many by surprise, but one would need some calcs to show that it can still sponge attacks without significant investment in its bulk.
Are there any reliable means of spreading paralysis for Conkeldurr so one does not have to resort to putting investment in speed?
Thundurus-I can paralyze anything that isn't a Ground or an electric type and the ability to neutralize common Scarf users such as Genesect is quite reliable although it is simply better at times just to attack and defeat its counters. Rotom-W may spread paralysis, but Will-O-Wisp has such high accuracy and it effectively cripples physically offensive Pokemon. Deoxys-D has T-wave.
Well, Conk does appreciate paralysis support, as does any slow Pokemon, but it can function well without it.
It definitely doesn't wall hits very well, but catching walls on the surprise is decent. I probably would still opt to have max HP / max Atk or w/e spread on it and mention about how max Speed can be used to get the surprise gangbang on walls.
Paralysis spreaders - Thundurus-I works well. Others include Klefki (it works okay) and probably some others that I'm too lazy to really list at the moment. Slowbro too I guess.
It definitely doesn't wall hits very well, but catching walls on the surprise is decent. I probably would still opt to have max HP / max Atk or w/e spread on it and mention about how max Speed can be used to get the surprise gangbang on walls.
Indeed, Assault Vest Conkeldurr takes out specific "walls" such as Lando-T (on the switch or if it stays in) with Ice Punch or Rotom-W, or sponge neutral offensive assaults an KO back with an appropriate move + Mach Punch. Guts acts as a deterrent for people trying to status it, and it effectively makes it as powerful as Iron Fist + Life Orb (and I appreciate the power of that set).
Simply, no boosting item or ability with a low base power primary attack means it is not a general wall breaker.
Indeed, Assault Vest Conkeldurr takes out specific "walls" such as Lando-T (on the switch or if it stays in) with Ice Punch or Rotom-W, or sponge neutral offensive assaults an KO back with an appropriate move + Mach Punch. Guts acts as a deterrent for people trying to status it, and it effectively makes it as powerful as Iron Fist + Life Orb (and I appreciate the power of that set).
Simply, no boosting item or ability with a low base power primary attack means it is not a general wall breaker.
AV Conk is a bit different than Sheer Force Conk. Arguably Sheer Force Conk does a better job at taking out walls. Not because of Guts - but because Sheer Force + Life Orb is so damn good on the coverage moves. Drain Punch and Mach Punch getting boosted through Life Orb also helps. It just stinks that it suffers from 4 MSS and moves like Earthquake trigger LO recoil.
I view AV Conk more like a unique sponge in that it doesn't mind status and can still do a hefty amount to most of its switch-ins - even walls. Those that it can't really dent AV Conk can retaliate with Knock Off.
