CAP Updates: Tomohawk Discussion--COMPLETE

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I'm also going to say disallow Feather Dance. It's not nearly as good as Reflect, but it still allows Hawk to blanket-check basically all physical attackers.

Circle Throw should be allowed. It gives Hawk more utility as a phaser, and gets some residual damage off.
 
I personally believe Circle Throw should be allowed, but I definitely agree that Feather Dance being added right after removing Reflect is jumping out of the pot and into the fire. I understand how it isn't quite as good as Reflect, but Tomohawk already has respectable bulk, good defensive typing, and priority roost. I don't believe it needs more methods of walling generic physical attackers.
 

Drapionswing

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I don't see why hawk should get Circle Throw? It phases cool but why does hawk need/want it? It doesn't really generate momentum as it is negative priority and once again just resets the field in similar effect to haze. Example:
Turn 1 colossoil comes in on your mollux
Turn 2 you switch into colossoils earthquake
Turn 3 colossoil switches into Tapu Koko as you circle throw and you bring out something else. If it's an unfavourable matchup you switch and if it's favourable you circle throw again.

Tomohawk doesn't need circle throw and this isn't really a consistency update for tomohawk at all. Tomohawk and Circle Throw both originate from Generation 5 and I'd like to think to that if tomohawk needed circle throw it would've gotten circle throw.
 

dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
Tomohawk and Circle Throw both originate from Generation 5 and I'd like to think to that if tomohawk needed circle throw it would've gotten circle throw.
I'm also against adding Circle Throw because it doesn't do anything to help fit Tomohawk's concept or current metagame role (we've already got phazing options, and I don't think this would see much use over Haze or another move on defensive hawk), but this isn't a very good argument on how to structure consistency updates because we have examples of Pokemon starting out without a move that was introduced in the same generation as they were and gaining it in a later generation (right off the top of my head I remember Venusaur couldn't use the TM for Earthquake till RSE, and Toxicroak gained Drain Punch as an egg move in BW).
 
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Whirlwind already sees very little on Tomohawk, and if we're being honest, Circle Throw really isn't much of an upgrade. I don't feel like Circle Throw's addition would harm anything, but I feel like the burden is on the pro-Circle Throw crowd to prove why this move's addition is necessary. None of the arguments have been particularly compelling, so I personally feel as though it should just be left out.
 

Deck Knight

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Back when Tomohawk's moveset was voted on, each submission often had wildly different competitive moves. Circle Throw was on several of them but not on capefeathers winning submission, which I reiterate already has Roar and Whirlwind.

Also, phazing is legitimately a momentum changer. It's random what gets pushed in but it still messes with stat-ups and works with hazards.
 

reachzero

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Considering how much time has passed with no discussion, I'm going to ask a significant question.

Considering the mandate for a "Major Competitive Update", is removing Reflect and Earth Power enough? Is there any remaining issue left to be addressed?

A few users brought up Haze in the introductory discussion, so this seems like a good place to settle this completely.

Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame? Why or why not?
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame? Why or why
Haze is incredibly healthy for the metagame. Without Haze Hawk, the metagame becomes a series of centralizing set uppers that have the potential to be unstoppable once they get going. Part of this is due to CAP's own unique set uppers, namely Aurumoth who can currently so easily get boosts that it seems like it's going to lose Illusion, and Cawmodore who's entire concept revolves getting an insane boost. In addition, things like Celesteela, Magearna, and Z Fly Lando / Gyarados can easily snowball out of control with their boosts. What's somewhat ironic is that all of the mons listed have ways to severely damage or outright KO Tomohawk after using Haze. Now that Reflect is gone from Tomo, the argument about Reflect + Haze Tomohawk cheesing through Land or Gyara is kinda moot.

Having one good priority Hazer is a fantastic for the metagame because of the huge prevalence of stat boosters. What's more, Tomohawk can often stop the boosts but loses to the targets 1v1, making it a balanced move. It doesn't just stop anything and everything without a cost and the cost is even sometimes Tomohawk's own life. Haze is not a get out of jail free card with no risks as some people have suggested; the risks are very real once you realize that the main targets for Haze Hawk have STAB or powerful coverage that deal with Tomohawk itself.

In terms of this thread being labeled a "major" competitive update, I believe that it is kinda irrelevant. For starters, what actually makes an update "major" was never discussed and it's a largely subjective term. Additionally, just because it's labeled "major" doesn't mean we have to meet a set quota on the number of things to change. Each element that is changed needs to be analyzed on its own terms. Changing something just because there's the false perception that we need to do more is rather silly; things should only be changed if there's actually reasoning behind the specific changes themselves. I think it's very dangerous to say "welp we changed two things but since this is a major update we are required to change more."
 
Considering the mandate for a "Major Competitive Update", is removing Reflect and Earth Power enough? Is there any remaining issue left to be addressed?
I tend to answer "Yes": Earth power was a extremely useful coverage move on both Defensive and Offensive set, both of them will still be very good without it, but now Tomohawk will have way more trouble against threats like Mollux, Mega-Crucibelle, Magearna, Mega-Metagross, Jirachi, Plasmanta, Cyclohm, Krilowatt...
I didn't see Reflect on Hawk very often, I liked it, but the ability of beating powerful physicall wallbreakers which hurt in Tomohawk's weaknesses was a big deal. Plus, 105/90 isn't bad, but not that great either.
Tomohawk is an excellent CAPmon which can easily fit on a team, but not a broken Mon that can completely sweep/stall a team in my opinion. I think that remove Earth Power and reflect is enough.

Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame? Why or why ?
I believe that HazeHawk is an extremely important and healthy thing in the Metagame 'cause some Set-up Mons become much more balanced (Coil Crucibelle, DD Zard-X... and also Cawmodore which is really annoying and build restrictive in my opinion). Yes it can completely change a game, but other Prankster User like Klefki, Thundurus, and even M-Banette are able to do similar things. I also think that removing Haze will hurt Defensive Tomohawk usefulness, so I really want to keep it.
 

Drapionswing

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Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame? Why or why not?

Honestly Haze Tomohawk is not healthy for the metagame. Tomohawk was intended to use haze to grab momentum i.e gain control of an unfavourable situation, and of course Tomohawk does this excellently. However it begins to do a bit more than gaining control of an unfavourable situation, and can bring back a lost game as long as you have a way of winning after sacking tomohawk. In doing so it's not really about grabbing momentum anymore, but instead it's about not losing which just so happens to fall under the category of "momentum" in a sense. Tomohawk can haze away any pokemons boost thus preventing a sweep from ANY pokemon until tomohawk is dead. This situation presented to the Tomohawk user is always in their favour, despite losing tomohawk, because they don't lose the actual game and still have a chance of winning. Therefore if the tomohawk user can actually afford to sack Tomohawk then they're in a winning scenario. This is extremely unhealthy because Tomohawk becomes a potential answer to every sweeper in the metagame as long as you have a pokemon that is faster or can live ONE hit after the haze sack.
What's somewhat ironic is that all of the mons listed have ways to severely damage or outright KO Tomohawk after using Haze.
Pokemon like Gyarados, Salamence or Landorus are prime examples of pokemon which force the haze, but allow the person who sacks Tomohawk to stay in the game regardless of the player allowing these threats to setup freely. Then once again you just sack to haze and as long as you have a potential to win then you come out on top. Not losing is always going to be worth the loss of 1 pokemon as long as you can still win without that pokemon.

I don't really see the point behind people arguing saying Tomohawk balances things like Gyarados, or Mega Charizard X because these pokemon are also used in the OU metagame and are in turn capable of being checked outside of tomohawks existence. The absence of haze hawk will not make these pokemon overbearing. Offensive pokemon that were mentioned above are checkable outside of tomohawk and this really does show how much people rely on tomohawk, being the ONLY pokemon capable of stopping such a wide range of sweepers, in turn causing centralisation.
 

Deck Knight

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As was stated numerous times in the thread, "Viable Prankster Haze" is synonymous with Tomohawk. Is it healthy? Totally.

OU is utterly plagued by immensely powerful stat-up sweepers and there is no Pokemon that can act like glue for a team against that strategy. As HeaL stated, being able to sacrifice Tomohawk at the expense of another shot to avoid getting stat-up swept is a huge factor in our metagame. Is it centralizing though? No. Tomohawk is a very good Pokemon even sans Earth Power and Reflect. It has great typing for both offensive and defensive threats, and its inability to be removed by trapping is invaluable.

If anything, CAP has even more and even scarier set-up threats than OU. Shell Smash Necturna hasn't been seen for a while directly because Tomohawk provides such a good check to it with Haze. Several CAPs before Cawmodore was made, Necturna was actually designed with a Belly Drum set in mind for Sketch (BD/Shadow Sneak/Horn Leech/Stone Edge). Tomohawk's ability to Haze this away while only having to eat a Shadow Sneak is immensely useful. Coil Crucibelle is another CAP-specific threat that The Hawk Rocks, or at least slows down now. HazeHawk almost functions like an additional Unaware mon in CAP, if you think about it in those terms.

For preventing runaway stat-up sweepers, of which there are multiple viable choices that also interact well within a team, HazeHawk is a great and most importantly balanced check on the metagame.

Additionally, though some may groan I'm re-opening Competitive Move Discussion (which we should have anyway), I believe Psyshock would be a healthy addition to Tomohawk's movepool. Coil Crucibelle just jarred this in me, but it would be nice to have a non-HP Ground option to smack Cruci with, and Psyshock simultaneously hits harder than HP Ground at +0, offers limited utility even on the offensive set without STAB, as most of CAP's Fighting types are more physically defensive or will be utilizing Bulk Up (Air Slash/Hurricane nukes them anyway).
 
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cbrevan

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In my opinion, Haze Tomohawk is one of the reasons why the metagame has turned out the way it has because it forces the setup user to build their team to account for Tomohawk, which means there is less stress on people to account for ever setup sweeper under the sun when they're building teams. I believe this effect is in fact healthy for the metagame because it helps to alleviate matchup problems created by the plethora of Pokemon that would otherwise have the ability to end games. Furthermore, Tomohawk alone isn't enough to completely stop a setup sweeper. It still takes careful planning and playing on the Tomohawk user's part to ensure that the one chance that Haze Tomohawk gives them to get back into the game is enough to win because Haze does not directly deal with the issue at hand, which is the Pokemon threatening to blow past its team. Compared to other reliable ways at prevent a sweep, such as a fast Scarfer, Haze is arguably less efficient because it leaves the mon behind, but is more useful for slower teams that appreciate the blanket check. In effect, Tomohawk is a balancing force against setup sweepers that may not be a problem on their own, but combined they can lead to a more matchup dependent metagame. Overall, I believe Haze Tomohawk is a healthy, if a bit centralizing, aspect of the metagame because it helps keep the metagame from polarizing behind offense and stall by allowing balance teams a way to reliably halt most setup sweepers.
 

reachzero

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When I think about Haze Tomohawk, the most natural Pokemon to compare it to is Landorus-Therian This comparison is logical just simply because they have a common role in CAP teambuilding (Colossoil counter that checks a bunch of other things) but because they create similar effects on metagames in which they are present. Landorus-Therian forces as much of the metagame as possible to the Special side and in particular forces everything physical to run Ice coverage if it possibly can. Mega Metagross gets very little coverage from Ice Punch that Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt don't already provide--and yet Mega Metagross almost always runs Ice Punch because Landorus-Therian is that great a metagame influence. Hidden Power Ice Landorus-Therian is a set, even a common set, in OU, and the primary reason is for opposing Landorus-Therian. In other words, it is one thing to talk about a Pokemon breaking a metagame, and completely another to talk about warping a metagame.

Tomohawk, like Landorus-Therian, warps the CAP metagame to an amazing extent. However, this is not the end of the comparison. Landorus-T can be prepared for fairly easily, and so can Haze Tomohawk. Each move combination with Haze opens up exploitable possibilities: Haze with Substitute or Taunt allows Tapu Fini and every Electric in virtually for free, while these are the only sets that keep SubCoil Zygarde from setting up all over Tomohawk. Similarly, Substitute is required for Tomohawk to not die to Supersonic Skystrike from Landorus-T, Gyarados and Salamence. In other words, HazeHawk will allow in some very dangerous threats, no matter what set it runs around Haze. It isn't a Pokemon you can throw haphazardly on a team--you have to have a plan as to how you will handle the things that come in in response to HazeHawk's lack of serious offensive presence.

Easy to forget, by the way, is the fact that before HazeHawk existed, Arghonaut already shut down many of the set-up sweepers that HazeHawk discourages, which means that Psychic and Flying attacks have been popular in the CAP metagame since DP. Some sweepers, like Geomancy Power Herb Necturna, are covered by HazeHawk but not Arghonaut, but others, such as Charizard-X, Arghonaut actually handles far better.

I'm not convinced, in other words, that Tomohawk is entirely unhealthy for the CAP metagame.
 
Considering how much time has passed with no discussion, I'm going to ask a significant question.

Considering the mandate for a "Major Competitive Update", is removing Reflect and Earth Power enough? Is there any remaining issue left to be addressed?

A few users brought up Haze in the introductory discussion, so this seems like a good place to settle this completely.

Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame? Why or why not?
I personally find Haze extremely overwhelming on Tomohawk and think it is unhealthy for the metagame. Heck, it doesn't really even need Reflect to invalidate half the potential setup sweepers in CAP. It's as bad as Chansey when it comes to beating an entire category of attacker. I have to agree with pretty much everything DrapionSwing said. I realize Tomohawk's concept was centered around affecting momentum and whatnot, but look at it this way: Do we really want a CAP that can erase almost all the opponent's hard-earned momentum instantly? The enemy obtained momentum and used it to set up. It seems kind of stupid that you can wipe out a turn that would have gotten the opponent the game, and the sacrifice of a bit of health which can be healed back the next turn. Sure the enemy technically comes out with the momentum when you use Haze, but it would have been much more valuable to keep the boost. And guess what? If the opponent kills Tomohawk after it uses Haze, the player who sacked Tomohawk actually comes out with the momentum which is just exceedingly stupid. Overall I think that this invalidation of many setup sweepers due to Haze Tomohawk is unhealthy and unnatural within the metagame, and makes teambuilding become lazy because as soon as they need a way to beat setup sweepers, many players instantly think "Hey, time to add Haze Tomohawk!"

The main problem is that I think Haze coupled with Prankster is too good of an option. I realize this is a bit polljump-ish, but we could consider removing Haze in lieu for Clear Smog, which lets it remove stat changes from many Pokemon still, but focuses on slower ones rather than the likes of Keldeo. This is just in case anyone is still absolutely desperate for Tomo to reset stat changes.

--- Edit ---

To sum it all up, I'll quote my position as said in the CAP room on Pokemon showdown:
"I personally believe that anything that can completely halt momentum besides a good switchin is harmful to the metagame. Having setup sweepers decreased in viability by Tomohawk is harmful to the metagame because it encourages bulky gameplay while reducing methods to beat the playstyle, and makes walls significantly more difficult to break. This requires players to go far out of the way to work around bulky Pokemon. Overall I believe that metagames tend to be better when more centered around an offensive Pokemon compared to a Defensive Pokemon (like Tomohawk) because more offense-oriented metagames tend to more reliably support a variety of playstyles."
 
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I personally find Haze extremely overwhelming on Tomohawk and think it is unhealthy for the metagame. Heck, it doesn't really even need Reflect to invalidate half the potential setup sweepers in CAP. It's as bad as Chansey when it comes to beating an entire category of attacker. I have to agree with pretty much everything DrapionSwing said. I realize Tomohawk's concept was centered around affecting momentum and whatnot, but look at it this way: Do we really want a CAP that can erase almost all the opponent's hard-earned momentum instantly? The enemy obtained momentum and used it to set up. It seems kind of stupid that you can wipe out a turn that would have gotten the opponent the game, and the sacrifice of a bit of health which can be healed back the next turn. Sure the enemy technically comes out with the momentum when you use Haze, but it would have been much more valuable to keep the boost. And guess what? If the opponent kills Tomohawk after it uses Haze, the player who sacked Tomohawk actually comes out with the momentum which is just exceedingly stupid. Overall I think that this invalidation of many setup sweepers due to Haze Tomohawk is unhealthy and unnatural within the metagame, and makes teambuilding become lazy because as soon as they need a way to beat setup sweepers, many players instantly think "Hey, time to add Haze Tomohawk!"

However, I don't honestly want to go overboard with the changes. I personally believe Tomohawk should run a DryPass pivot set, Spinner set, Stealth Rock, set, and maybe a few other utility/tank options. I don't believe that it should be having a 100% guaranteed way to demolish the enemy's statistics. The main problem is that I think Haze coupled with Prankster is too good of an option. I realize this is a bit polljump-ish, but we could consider removing Haze in lieu for Clear Smog, which lets it remove stat changes from many Pokemon still, but focuses on slower ones rather than the likes of Keldeo. But we need to tread carefully regardless of what we do. I'd rather underkill and leave it with Haze than completely demolish Tomo's roles.
Okay first things first, Tomohawk has 8 billion roles and options, changing haze will not completely demolish anything.

Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy for the metagame? Why or why not?

No, absolutely not. To me, Haze really oversteps the boundary of stealing momentum, into as I've said before, saving games. Losing Tomohawk to stop a sweep, not counter it or to beat the sweeper, but to stop it, is an extremely powerful and unhealthy tool that no other pokemon in the game has, for good reason. Haze in Tomohawk's movepool also makes the set extremely over centralized, and in my opinion, saturates his usage (by that I mean its so good, that it becomes extremely common, and thats a bit silly for a mon that has as many options as Tomohawk has).

Now to address what other people have said.

Having one good priority Hazer is a fantastic for the metagame because of the huge prevalence of stat boosters. What's more, Tomohawk can often stop the boosts but loses to the targets 1v1, making it a balanced move. It doesn't just stop anything and everything without a cost and the cost is even sometimes Tomohawk's own life. Haze is not a get out of jail free card with no risks as some people have suggested; the risks are very real once you realize that the main targets for Haze Hawk have STAB or powerful coverage that deal with Tomohawk
In several cases, with examples such as Mega Gyarados or Mega Scizor, Tomohawk can stop a sweep with no fear whatsoever, and of course in other cases has to sacrifice it's life to get the job done. However, the key to this is to realize, losing Tomohawk to prevent losing to a sweeper, is very much a trade in your favor. Do not look at the theoretical "6 mons vs 5 mons" with Tomohawk having died, look at the actual implications of its death. It may be dead, but if you have a chance to win after it has hazed the sweeper, thats much better than just losing outright, and that in itself, should not happen.

Deck Knight mentioned psyshock, and that it hits Crucibelle a little harder. A) I dont really support this move, I don't see the point of taking away coverage just to add things back.
0 SpA Tomohawk Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 160-192 (45.1 - 54.2%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tomohawk Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
It quite literally does a "little more" but if thats the reasoning, I see no point


Furthermore, Tomohawk alone isn't enough to completely stop a setup sweeper. It still takes careful planning and playing on the Tomohawk user's part to ensure that the one chance that Haze Tomohawk gives them to get back into the game is enough to win because Haze does not directly deal with the issue at hand, which is the Pokemon threatening to blow past its team. Compared to other reliable ways at prevent a sweep, such as a fast Scarfer, Haze is arguably less efficient because it leaves the mon behind, but is more useful for slower teams that appreciate the blanket check. In effect, Tomohawk is a balancing force against setup sweepers that may not be a problem on their own, but combined they can lead to a more matchup dependent metagame. Overall, I believe Haze Tomohawk is a healthy, if a bit centralizing, aspect of the metagame because it helps keep the metagame from polarizing behind offense and stall by allowing balance teams a way to reliably halt most setup sweepers.
  1. Tomohawk alone can stop a sweep, it however does not guarantee a counter to that sweeper
  2. I do agree with Cbrevan here, it does take careful planning to use hazehawk, but anyone can do that if they have the skill. "All i have to do is haze and make sure I have a wincon when my Tomohawk dies."
  3. While yes a scarfer can kill the mon, no one scarfer can stop all sweepers. Hazehawk can stop these sweepers, and again notice the stop.
  4. If Haze is removed from Tomohawk's arsenal, the metagame will not polarize. The obvious example of course, whether or not anyone wants to actually consider it valid, is OU. The priority reset button does not exist there, and it is not polarized behind any particular playstyle.
So that's basically where I stand. There's generally a lot of back and forth on Hazehawk, which should really speak volumes for itself. I look forward to seeing what other arguments can be made to justify haze.
 
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jas61292

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While reachzero is the one who originally asked the question of us, I think he has done the best job of answering it himself. Tomohawk with Haze is an important, metagame shaping Pokemon, but that does not in and of itself mean it is bad. Every metagame has Pokemon that shape it, and those Pokemon are going to be something you need to deal with if you want to succeed. Its only when things warp the metagame AND are very hard to deal with that they are an issue. But Haze Tomo is something you absolutely can deal with, despite its power and influence over the meta.

People are really trying to oversell the power of stopping a sweep. Unaware Pokemon exist that stop sweeps by their very existence. Choice Scarf Pokemon exist to stop sweeps by revenging, often without taking any damage. Honestly, it seems to me that people just see this as some strange strategy that no real Pokemon uses and label it differently and think of it as unfair. As if you deserve to lose if it is your only method of getting back in a game. But really, how is it any different than any other method of sweep stopping? Its not, and the arguments to the contrary are entirely unconvincing.

I'm not going to rehash all the arguments that have been already made by reachzero, cbrevan and others, but suffice it to say that I wholeheartedly agree with that Haze Tomo is perfectly fine, and is in fact quite healthy for the metagame.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Do you believe Haze Tomohawk is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame? Why or why not?
I personally think Haze Tomohawk is extremely healthy for the metagame. If you look at the number of relevent pokemon in the metagame and a lot of CAPs in general, there are a ton of pokemon that have the potential to setup and sweep. Some of these include: Fly-Z Lando-T, Aurumoth, Cawmadore, Coil Crucibelle, Z-Hold Hands Kerf, Mega Charizard X, and so many more. Without Haze Tomo, far too many of these guys would run free with very little opposition. While there are certainly ways of beating individual setup sweepers through Unaware and Choice Scarfing, but there would be far too many for teams to be able to account for all of them. Haze Tomohawk acts as general check to all of these sweepers, and forces teams to account for Tomohawk in the metagame. And while Tomohawk is accused of being able to stop any sweeper cold and act as the great dictator of setup sweeping, there are ways around it. The entire Fly-Z trend has really become popular because of Tomohawk, but it isn't centralized to hit only Tomohawk. Psychic coverage is now commonplace in CAP, but it also hits other threats besides Tomohawk. Tomohawk is not nearly as strong as people envision it as, and it would be far worse if it did not have Haze. So, yeah, Haze Tomohawk is very much healthy for the metagame.
 

reachzero

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A full week has past since I first asked about whether Haze is healthy for the metagame. Nine users responded, and of those, three believed that Haze is unhealthy. The thread has been more or less dead for five days now, and so I must conclude that this is not a topic over which the community in general is willing to storm the castle with torches and pitchforks.

The reasonable question at this point is, "Does Haze go to a poll?" I am convinced that the answer to this is no. It is obvious to me that the scope of the updates is already going to bring very substantial change to the metagame, and removing Haze from Tomohawk would be absolutely throwing wide Pandora's proverbial box. The ability changes to Naviathan and Arghonaut are already major portents of things to come, and whichever ability is selected for Revenankh, it is highly likely to be a very powerful one. Haze Tomohawk is a stabilizing and defining force in the metagame, and to change it at this point is to mess with the principle of Conservation we came into the updates with.

If there was a rousing, public outcry against Haze on the scale of that against Reflect on Tomohawk or Illusion on Aurumoth, I would put Haze to a poll despite my reservations. However, it is readily apparent that such an outcry is not coming, and so I believe it is better to maintain Tomohawk's status as is.

Moreover, there have been no posts recommending new moves for Tomohawk except Deck Knight's suggestion of Psyshock, which has received little support. Since Tomohawk is already a very viable threat offensively and defensively in the CAP metagame, I do not believe it is necessary to shoehorn any new moves into Tomohawk's movepool.

This means that Tomohawk is the first CAP to be finished with the competitive phase of its Generation 7 Update Process! Tomohawk lost Reflect and Earth Power, and did not gain any new competitive moves in the transition to Generation 7. I look forward to seeing how the metagame develops over the rest of the updates!

It has come to my attention, however, that we do not want to overlook certain consistency updates. This includes new universally available TMs, if any, and other moves available to all Fighting and/or Flying types in SM, etc.

What moves would we expect to find on the vast majority of Fighting and or Flying types in Generation 7 that Tomohawk does not yet possess?
 
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Deck Knight

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Tomohawk is pretty well spoken for as far as equivalent STABs, the only thing it's missing that would seem to fit flavorwise and has few Competitive implications is Brave Bird, which isn't that threatening off 60 Atk even after a Bulk Up. And for the record I still like Circle Throw.

Consistency Moves (>75% type learning) Tomohawk doesn't have:

Gen 5:
Low Kick (Gen 5 Tutor Fighting)
Low Sweep (Gen 5 Tutor Fighting)
Sleep Talk (Gen 5 Universal)
Snore (Gen 5 Universal)
Superpower (Gen 5 Tutor Fighting)
Work Up (All Fighting/Normal types get this, however +1 to SpA might be problematic)

Gen 6:
Confide (Gen 6 TM Universal)
Echoed Voice (Gen 6 TM Normal) [Normals and "Birds" recieved this, Tomohawk's pre-vo Scratchet is Normal/Flying)
Focus Punch (Gen 6 Tutor Fighting)
Helping Hand (Gen 6 Tutor Fighting)
Payback (Gen 6 TM Fighting)
Power-Up Punch (Gen 6 TM Fighting)
Round (Gen 6 TM Universal)
Secret Power (Gen 6 TM Universal)


Misc:
Scratch (We named Tomo's prevo Scratchet and it doesn't even have Scratch)
Steel Wing (basically anything with Wings with any typing received this.)
Sky Attack (Wings.)
Iron Tail (basically anything with a Tail with any typing received this.)
Flying Press 100% of Fighting/Flying types get this.
 
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Uh... just a quick edit, Tomohawk does have access to some of the moves Deck Knight mentioned, on Showdown and on the strategy dex, so I'm just going to point out that Tomohawk already has these from your list: Superpower, Work Up, Echoed Voice, and Round. As for why I thought to check, low ladder runs interesting sets... like Work Up Tomohawk. .-.

Other than that though, I have to say that list looks might fine! Even the Misc. moves have my support. Though, Sky Attack is a toss up, since roughly only 50% of fully evolved flying types learn it / don't learn it, I think. Maybe I calced it wrong, but it's a physical attack, so I don't think it has too much of an impact.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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What moves would we expect to find on the vast majority of Fighting and or Flying types in Generation 7 that Tomohawk does not yet possess?
I pretty much agree with Deck Knight's suggestions, just some other consistency changes are neccessary for them to work. The TM list for Gen 7 is slightly nuts, so I'll be also statingre-arrangments

Consistency Update suggestions:

Work Up (move from TM83 to TM01)
Power-Up Punch (learned by a ton of Fighting types, but a Gen 6 TM exclusive. Gotta be egg move or transfer only)
Nature Power (Now available via TM, so that can be added to the list under TM96; also not under the Egg Move column like its supposed to be.)
Confide (Near-Universal TM, so added under TM100)
Low Sweep (Gen 5 Tutors, plus Gen 7 TM availability under TM47; works with the Fighting-Type)
Low Kick (A lot of Fighting types have it, so I see no reason not to have it)
Scratch (as Scratchet is a thing)
Fly (No longer an HM, so can be added to a TM list)
Flying Press (Tomohawk is Hawlucha's aztec brother, it can pretty much never use it well, and it synergizes well with its typing.)
Secret Power (No longer a TM, so possibly movable to egg move)
I might add more later, but this is it for now.

I support Deck Knight's misc. choices so I won't mention them.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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To approach this from a bit of a different angle from Deck, rather than just looking at percentages and type correlation, I've started by looking at new moves that any given Pokemon would be likely to get. What I mean by this are the moves that newly became TMs, HMs or Tutor moves since the Pokemon's release, or what I like to think of as "easily accessible" moves. Tomohawk was created at the beginning of gen 5. As such, thinking from a consistency standpoint, it could easily have gained gen 5 tutor moves that came out later in the generation, as well as new TMs and tutors from gen 6 and 7. I'm going to start by just dumping all of the info on those moves:

Note that this is not a list of moves I believe Tomohawk should get. All this is is simply moves that were not "easily accessible" at the time of Tomohawk's creation, but became "easily accessible" at some point between then and now. My comments on the moves are below.



Orange moves, such as Heat Wave and Hyper Voice are moves already learned by Tomohawk. As such, they are irrelevant to discussion here, but we should remember to add the appropriate TMs or tutors to Tomo's movepool data on PS.

Blue moves, or should I say move, is Earth Power, which we have voted to remove. As such, it has no place in discussion here.

Yellow moves, such as Confide, are universal, and all Pokemon who get TM or Tutor moves typically get these. As such, Tomohawk should probably get these moves, and I doubt anyone would have any issue with that.

Red moves are those that I personally thought might have some competitive use on Tomohawk. While we do not have to avoid any and every move that could be competitive, we want to avoid anything that Tomo might even slightly consider actually using outside a very rare gimmick. I may have been conservative here, and some people might disagree, and that is OK. But as with normal movepool flavor moves, anything that is more than a rare gimmick should not even be under consideration.

The remaining uncolored moves are those that don't fall under any of the above categories. If we want to make any other additions beyond the universal moves, there are the kind of moves that are ideal to draw from.

So, with all that in mind, some moves I think might be good to give Tomohawk are:

  • Confide [Gen 6 & 7 TM] - A universal move.
  • Helping Hand [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - Nearly universal among fighting types. Only Scraggy and Scrafty lacked it among fighting types who existed those gens.
  • Iron Tail [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - Tomohawk has a tail, and this move is practically universal among tailed Pokemon.
  • Power-Up Punch [Gen 6 TM] - The only fighting types available in Gen 6 not to get it were Heracross, Hitmontop, Tyrogue and ones without arms, so the correlation is very high.
  • Sky Attack [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - it is a fully evolved flying type Pokemon based on a bird. All but one Pokemon that fits those criteria and existed in gen 6 get it.
  • Sleep Talk [Gen 5 Tutor + Gen 6 & 7 TM] - a universal move.
  • Snore [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - a universal move.
  • Steel Wing [Gen 6 & 7 TM] - its a bird with wings, and this move is pretty much universal in that group.
On the other hand, some move that have been suggested that I am not sold on are the following:

  • Low Sweep [Gen 5, 6 & 7 TM] - As this was a Gen 5 TM, and not a Tutor, that means we could have given it to Tomohawk when it was created, but it did not get it. As such, I don't see a good reason to change the initial decision on this move. It is very rare for a Pokemon to get access to a TM it didn't get in past generation.
  • Low Kick [Gen 5 & 6 Tutor] - While there is high correlation between this move and fighting types, it is very similar to Low Sweep, and I prefer to keep the two of them together. In this case that means I don't see a reason for it.
  • Payback [Gen 5, 6 & 7 TM] - Just like with Low Sweep, this is a move that was available at the time, and we didn't give it to Tomohawk, even though it had type correlation. I don't see a good reason to change that. Again, it is very rare for a Pokemon to get access to a TM it didn't get in past generation.

That's it from me for now. Though, I will add that I totally support adding Scratch for Scratchet purposes as well.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Counterpoint on not giving some Gen 5 flavor moves to Tomohawk:

Back when we did Movepool Submissions in that generation, both competitive and flavor movepool were combined into one submission, AND all submissions had a limit on total moves available. I can tell you having submitted a movepool for nearly every single CAP (with a few successes and multiple high finishes) that there was always intense pressure in the VGM Era to maximize competitive movepool which meant any flavor moves you'd have liked to give but would push you over your move maximum could get and were cut. If I had that mindset and was at least somewhat successful in Movepool Submissions (I won the next CAP, Necturna's Movepool poll under the same system, for whatever that's worth), others were doing it as well.

Given the large variance between movepools and what individual submitters believed appropriate flavor, and pressure to maximize competitive moves leading directly to cutting flavor moves, I believe as far as Consistency goes on non-competitive moves that purely flavor moves from that generation should be up for consideration.

For reference, here's the original comparison spreadsheet from Tomohawk's submissions: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...uKXjdAj8btM/edit?hl=en&authkey=CL2G8ZsP#gid=0

Those were differences solely among competitive moves. In the thread, a great many of the submissions did indeed include Low Sweep, but capefeathers submission did not as he included many strong competitive moves vying for space within the maximum allowed.
 
Something I want to point out with Confide is that it might lead to the same issue that people had with Feather Dance, so I don't know if we should give it that.
 
Something I want to point out with Confide is that it might lead to the same issue that people had with Feather Dance, so I don't know if we should give it that.
Feather Dance was rejected because it is a powerful -2 drop on the opposing Pokémon, which takes even Choice Band mons down to an effective minus 1 Atk. Combined with Prankster, the move allowed Tomo to basically maintain its ability to stomach nearly any physical attack.

Confide is fundamentally different. Not only is it one of the Universal TMs, which means Tomo has no reason not to receive it, but it also only lowers the opponents SpA by one stage. A minus one drop doesn't have the same impact a minus 2 drop does. It doesn't give an effective drop to Choice Specs users, unlike Feather Dance does to Bands.

This is just my opinion, but denying a fully evolved Pokémon a universal TM because it can drop a stat by one stage is ludicrous. Consider, furthermore, that Tomo has to give up a slot to use Confide. That means you have Roost, Confide, Air Slash/Aura Sphere, Haze / Healing Wish / Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock / Taunt / Substitute as your general moveset outline. Look at the sheer amount of better utility moves that I've been forced to slash on the last slot because I gave a slot to Confide. Generally speaking, all those slashed moves are greatly more useful than Confide could ever hope to be. Personally, I would rather have two of the slashed moves any given day over only one and Confide. Confide simply has no reason to be used on Tomohawk over its plethora of better utility moves.

This non-utility combined with the fact that Confide is a universal TM means that there is no reason it should not be included as a flavor addition.
 
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