CAP Updates: Plasmanta (Complete)

[jas61292]

I think that Drapionswing's lists above are a bit misleading. It only mentioned LO with regard to a single set, yet mentions that that set can beat Dugtrio and Garchomp despite both outspeeding, and only being beaten if you use your weakest move on a predicted switch. Furthermore, all three lists have Fidgit, when that is really not true. I mean, yes, in theory, if Fidgit is not running Earth Power and can't to anything to you (which I personally think is a bad idea for Fidgit to do), then yes Plas beats it. But at that point its an irrelevant thing, since litterally any set with any moves would beat it. But if we are actually looking at a Fidgit set that poses any threat at all, then this is not the case. Yes, HP Ice can 2HKO with LO, but not before Fidgit outspeeds and OHKOs. And without LO, it cannot get that KO at all. Only Scarf Surf would beat that set.

Ultimately though, the lists are not that different, and I think there are other important things to take into account. For example, people talk about Aura Sphere as if it is an easy replacement for HP Fire against Ferrothorn. That is simply not the case. Yes, it makes Plasmanta not helpless against Ferrothorn, which is great, but it doesn't make Plasmanta win in the same way that HP Fire does. Without LO, it it not 2HKOing. With LO, it still might not. HP Fire is getting a 2HKO guaranteed on any set, pretty much. This is an actual sacrifice. The sacrifices it is making with Surf are much less. For example, yes, Surf is not as good against Landorus-T as HP Ice. But what is really the difference? HP Ice OHKOs offensive Lando and 2HKOs defensive without a LO. With LO it OHKOs both. But Surf 2HKOs both, and Plas outspeeds. As such, the only real downside is that Plas can't switch in on it and KO from full health. But not even non-LO HP Ice can do that for sue. Gliscor is a similar situation.

Also, it is worth noting that Aura Sphere is weaker than Surf against targets they both hit equally. Lets take AV Colossoil for instance. Using the 0/220 Colo from the damage calc, if Plasmanta is LO, Surf can potentially 2HKO. Its a tiny chance, but if Rocks are in play, it is up to 40%. Aura Sphere can never 2HKO. Alternatively, if Plasmanta is not LO, Surf is a guaranteed 3HKO. Aura Sphere is not. With Rocks it is a ~60%; without, its ~3%. That is a big difference, when Colo can do so much to Plas with Sucker Punch or Pursuit. As another example, LO Surf OHKOs offensive Excadrill 100% of the time, while LO Aura Sphere only does so 37.5% of the time. That is a crucial difference when it means 62.5% of the time you are yourself KOd.

I think in general, while Aura Sphere might hit more things, the actual difference it makes is far less impactful. It is essentially replacing a move designed to hit one single Pokemon, and doing so by trading strength for extra utility. Personally I think this is something we want to have more than the more general coverage of Surf.

 

[Drapionswing]

I've edited it in clearer to show that all sets are Life Orb.

Also, regarding your comments on Garchomp, Dugtrio and Fidgit please note that this list has things you beat and/or hit. These three Pokemon were listed as they are hit on a predicted switch.

While Aura Sphere does not have as much power as Surf I think you're discrediting the fact that Plasmanta can freely run Hidden Power Ice and consistently eliminate the quad-weak ground types without losing out on anything whereas, surf does not have this benefit. You can also net a guaranteed 2HKO on Ferrothorn if you have Stealth Rocks up so the main goal of this coverage option is still in play. Comparatively Plasmanta with Surf doesn't have as much leeway as Plasmanta with Aura Sphere due to Plasmanta still having to rely on Hidden power Ice to hit the likes of Zygarde and Garchomp or Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn. This decision making is what makes Surf a less powerful option to Aura Sphere as you can't beat everything you want to beat with 1 set. I'd also like to think that being able to handle more Pokemon overall is a better trade off than guaranteed 2HKOs and OHKOs.

I'm failing to see how Aura Sphere would be less impactful than surf if it completely nullifies the biggest problem with Plasmanta; the choice between Hidden Powers.

 

[Deck Knight]

The biggest issue with Surf to me is it hits basically everything except Zygarde and Garchomp hard enough to OHKO with prior damage (and sometimes without), and is really the most splashable of the coverage moves. Yes, Surf and HP Fire seem like the more natural combination, but Surf and HP Ice neatly combine to remove Ground types as a threat entirely. Ferrothorn might be able to wall Plas from there, but Ferrothorn is incredibly passive while Zygarde and Chomp are more threatening. Surf is the most versatile coverage option under consideration and the one which jams more of its actual, threatening counters in a single move.

In fact, Surf is versatile enough that rather than HP, Plasmanta might opt instead for Psychic (Mollux) or Dazzling Gleam (Dragons).

I used the Damage Calculator to look up Aura Sphere vs Surf vs Grass Knot on which scenario which move is stronger (and added back a few relevant calcs where moves are similar):

All Following Calculations w/ Life Orb:

Comparison

Bisharp (OU Swords Dance) Aura Sphere 226.5 - 266.7% guaranteed OHKO
Chansey (OU Utility) Aura Sphere 18.2 - 21.8% possible 5HKO
Excadrill (OU Sand Rush) Aura Sphere 89.7 - 106.3% 37.5% chance to OHKO
Excadrill (OU Offensive Spinner) Aura Sphere 89.7 - 106.3% 37.5% chance to OHKO
Excadrill (OU Choice Scarf) Aura Sphere 89.7 - 106.3% 37.5% chance to OHKO
Excadrill (OU Bulky Spinner) Aura Sphere 50.9 - 60.1% 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn (OU Utility) Aura Sphere 50.2 - 59% 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hydreigon (OU Choice Specs) Aura Sphere 76.9 - 90.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Kartana (OU Swords Dance) Aura Sphere 209.6 - 247.8% guaranteed OHKO
Kyurem (OU Choice Specs) Aura Sphere 63.9 - 75.7% guaranteed 2HKO
Kyurem-Black (OU Icium Z Wallbreaker) Aura Sphere 71 - 84.3% guaranteed 2HKO
Kyurem-Black (OU Mixed Wallbreaker) Aura Sphere 71 - 84.3% guaranteed 2HKO
Kyurem-Black (OU Choice Band) Aura Sphere 63.9 - 75.7% guaranteed 2HKO
Magnezone (OU Choice Specs) Aura Sphere 79.8 - 94.5% guaranteed 2HKO
Magnezone (OU Choice Scarf) Aura Sphere 88.9 - 105.3% 37.5% chance to OHKO
Porygon-Z (OU Z-Conversion) Aura Sphere 93.2 - 109.9% 62.5% chance to OHKO
Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Aura Sphere 133.9 - 158.1% guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) Aura Sphere 133.9 - 158.1% guaranteed OHKO
Weavile (OU Life Orb) Aura Sphere 186.8 - 220.2% guaranteed OHKO

Colossoil (CAP Assault Vest) Grass Knot 56.7 - 67% 1.2% guaranteed 2HKO
Colossoil (CAP Flame Orb) Grass Knot 110.5 - 130.2% guaranteed OHKO
Dugtrio (OU Offensive Trapper) Grass Knot 109.4 - 129.3% guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Grass Knot 43.2 - 57.7% 96.9% chance to 2HKO after SR
Landorus-Therian (OU Defensive) Grass Knot 35 - 41.6% guaranteed 3HKO
Hippowdon (OU Physical Wall) Grass Knot 104.5 - 123% guaranteed OHKO
Mamoswine (OU Wallbreaker) Grass Knot 159.2 - 187.8% guaranteed OHKO
Quagsire (OU Physical Wall) Grass Knot 163.7 - 193.9% guaranteed OHKO
Terrakion (OU Choice Scarf) Grass Knot 115.4 - 136.4% guaranteed OHKO
Terrakion (OU Stealth Rock) Grass Knot 115.4 - 136.4% guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Grass Knot 100.2 - 118.7% guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) Grass Knot 100.2 - 118.7% guaranteed OHKO
Zygarde (OU Dragon Dance) Grass Knot 49.8 - 59.1% 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Zygarde (OU SubCoil) Grass Knot 31.8 - 37.4% guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Colossoil (CAP Assault Vest) Surf 42.7 - 50.3% 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Colossoil (CAP Flame Orb) Surf 83-97.7% guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Crucibelle Mega (CAP All-Out Attacker) Surf 60.1 - 71.1 guaranteed 2HKO
Dugtrio (OU Focus Sash Trapper) Surf 163.9 - 193.3% guaranteed OHKO
Dugtrio (OU Offensive Trapper) Surf 163.9 - 193.3% guaranteed OHKO
Excadrill (OU Bulky Spinner) Surf 57 - 67.4% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Excadrill (OU Choice Scarf) Surf 101.3 - 119.3% guaranteed OHKO
Excadrill (OU Offensive Spinner) Surf 101.3 - 119.3% guaranteed OHKO
Excadrill (OU Sand Rush) Surf 101.3 - 119.3% guaranteed OHKO
Garchomp (OU Choice Scarf) Surf 41 - 48.6% guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp (OU Offensive Stealth Rock) Surf 41 - 48.6% guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp (OU Swords Dance) Surf 41 - 48.6% guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp (OU Tank Chomp) Surf 35.2 - 41.7% guaranteed 3HKO
Gliscor (OU Swords Dance) Surf 69.3 - 82.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Heatran (OU Bulky) Surf 63.2 - 74.8% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Heatran (OU Offensive) Surf 75.5 - 89.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Choice Scarf) Surf 96.8 - 115% 81.3% chance to OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Double Dance) Surf 96.8 - 115% 81.3% chance to OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Surf 96.8 - 115% 81.3% chance to OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Physically Defensive) Surf 79 - 93.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Marowak-Alola (OU Utility Attacker) Surf 118.3 - 139.4% guaranteed OHKO
Nihilego (OU Choice Scarf) Surf 57.1 - 67.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Nihilego (OU Choice Specs) Surf 57.1 - 67.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Nihilego (OU Offensive Entry Hazard Setter) Surf 57.1 - 67.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Volcarona (OU Quiver Dance Sweeper) Surf 79.4 - 93.5% guaranteed 2HKO
Zygarde-10% (OU Choice Band) Surf 59 - 69.4% guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, the Surf list is pretty huge and includes a number of Pokemon that should check Plasmanta but would not do so with Surf. Grass Knot on the other hand performs competitively against Pokemon you would want it to hit, and especially wipes out the most troublesome Ground-type walls while leaving Excadrill as a check, at least for that move. You can't nuke Lando-T with it, especially not Defensive, but it's serviceable enough. Grass Knot and Aura Sphere combined hit all but a few Pokemon on the Surf list sufficiently well, but take two moves to do it.

 

[Cresselia92]

If Surf is deemed a dangerous option, then I would like to give an odd suggestion: want about giving to Plasmanta Muddy Water instead?

It essentially is as strong as Surf, and even has the possibility to reduce accuracy of the opponent, but this all comes at the cost of a very shaky accuracy for the user, which could bite it more often than not. It's never used in a competitive scene because the users either can learn Surf already, or have better moves to use (in the case of Goodra and Lickilicky).

It would be almost akin of using Focus Blast on Psychic-types: a strong coverage move with an added effect held back by its unreliability. Muddy Water would essentially become the Focus Blast of Plasmanta, in a sense, who may either dare to run it or go for some other (and more reliable) coverage move.

Sure, I could see some Waterium Z + Muddy Water sets surfacing, but they would simply be lures and sacrifice the benefits of Life Orb for a one-time nuke. If all, it would make Plasmanta a bit more versatile.

 

[Bramblestein]

I would say that Muddy Water skews its list of checks even more because 85% accuracy is a small price to pay for a 30% chance to drop accuracy. It can make Manta a lot more difficult to revenge because you can't guarantee you'll actually be able to hit it. So pokemon like Garchomp who can eat a hit and RK aren't a safe switch in anymore which opens Manta up to running HP fire for Ferrothorn and Scizor. There's really not enough opportunity cost imo.

 

[snake]

I want to leave this discussion open for a little bit longer, but Muddy Water isn't a substitute for Surf. Accuracy should not be an argument for balancing moves. It's got the same accuracy as Fire Blast. You don't assume Fire Blast is going to miss when you're in a battle. Personally I sigh with relief when Fire Blast misses against me (and rage when my Volk misses out of Analytic boost on the switch-in).

New question to go with the others (feel free to keep answering those!):

3. Is trying to buff Plasmanta's utility tangential to this update?

This question mostly applies to Pain Split. I think it's an option within the scope of this update, so we should at least discuss it. I want to wrap up this stage soon, so expect a new blacklist and poll in 48 hours (If discussion is still going then, I'll extend the deadline).

 

[Airwind]

3. Is trying to buff Plasmanta's utility tangential to this update?
I dont think pain split need to be beacuse most of the pain split users are slow and fat so why pain split would be a opption with so much ground types and rock types in the metagame beacuse plasmanta is weak no a wall or fat pokemon. i still belive surf or a coverage move is the option for plasmanta and plasmanta is a offensive mon no a defensive mon

 

[sparktrain]

A possibility I'd like to bring up which hasn't been discussed yet is weak Fire coverage. One of Plasmanta's setbacks which has been discussed quite a bit is its heavy reliance on Hidden Power to complement its STAB moves. Rather than adding completely new, powerful coverage to blast through would-be checks, weak Fire coverage addresses the issue in a different way. For example, adding Incinerate to Plasmanta's movepool effectively allows it to "run" both Hidden Powers on the same set. Upgrading the BP just a tad wouldn't be unreasonable either. Choice Scarf Plasmanta has a bit of an issue revenge killing +6 Cawmodore since HP Fire doesn't consistently hit it for more than 75%, whereas the stronger Flame Burst does.

252 SpA Plasmanta Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 168-198 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Plasmanta Flame Burst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 196-232 (80.9 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A super effective Flame Burst (70*2 = 140 BP) is only marginally stronger than a neutral Thunderbolt (90*1.5 = 135 BP). It's not as out there as adding say, Flamethrower.

Just some food for thought. Not looking to push the discussion in any certain direction (snake_rattler is doing a great job guiding this thread btw), but it may be another effective solution worth discussing.

 

[snake]

It's time to update the blacklist once again.

Over the course of this update, I've concluded that the healthiest way to look at this update is not to focus on coverage for Ground-types. Deck Knight's point of HP Ice + Surf countering all Ground-types is a good point, and it's worse for HP Ice + Grass-type coverage because Grass-type moves hits all the niche Water / Ground checks and counters (Gastrodon, Swampert, Quagsire). In addition, Surf is kinda crazy in general, and Energy Ball hits certain Ground-types supereffectively and the rest for neutral. It's hard to justify adding on this move when you could achieve neutral damage on these mons with Psychic, a move that Plasmanta already has. In short, these moves undermine what Plasmanta is, so I'm placing Surf, Grass Knot, and Energy Ball on the blacklist.

Aura Sphere or the weak Fire-type coverage in sparktrain's post above provide a "cleaner" update for Plasmanta. I'd like to put up a poll in 48 hours, so let's get it going. I know you all like questions...

1. Does Incinerate / Flame Burst provide anything new over Aura Sphere?

Note that this poll will not mark the end of the moveset discussion. I'd like to see a little bit of discussion on Pain Split after the poll.

EDIT: I'm nuking any post that mentions Flamethower, Fire Blast, or Overheat.

 

[Reviloja753]

1. Does Incinerate / Flame Burst provide anything new over Aura Sphere?

Yes. It provides an easier way to check Steel types. With Aura Sphere, many things that are common in the metagame, like MegaMeta and Cawmodore are neutral to Fighting due to their other typing. That isn't really the case with the Fire coverage, barring Heatran and Naviathan, which (even post update) not the best Pokémon in the tier. Whether we want this or not is something I am not sure of, but this seemed like something to point out. I'm personally leaning towards Flame Burst, as it has that slight power boost so that it isn't too powerful without becoming Water Pulse 2.0.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

RIP Energy Ball ;-;

1. Does Incinerate / Flame Burst provide anything new over Aura Sphere?

It pretty much serves as a stronger HP Fire, which Cawmodore and Ferrothorn can't easily switch into. However, it also offers the ability to hit other steel types such as Mega Mawile and MegaGross supereffectively. This bugs me specifically for one reason: Steel types are also a common check for Plasmanta. They naturally can switch into Sludge Wave/Bomb, and resists Psychic and HP Ice, which are natural coverage options for Plasmanta as well as HP Fire. And while it is true that Aura Sphere hits a number of these Steel types stronger, such as Naviathan, Heatran and Excadrill, a number of prominent Steel types have secondary typings that turn Aura Sphere a neutrality. Fire coverage doesn't offer the same. A MegaGross now has to worry about a Scarf Plasmanta predicting his switch in and taking nearly 70%. A similar case can be made for Mega Mawile and Kitsunoh. This may be a totally dumb argument, but better Fire coverage just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[snake]

It's time for a poll. Weak Fire-type moves didn't garner enough discussion to go to a poll, so Aura Sphere will be the only option, alongside No Change of course. Also, Pain Split didn't get much discussion at all, so spark and I decided not to go back to it after the poll. Expect the poll shortly.

EDIT: The poll can be found here.

 

[snake]

Aura Sphere wins the poll! With this, Plasmanta has fulfilled its competitive update. It's time to move on with Plasmanta's flavor movepool.

This will not be a formal movepool submission phase. As we did with Navi (and with all Gen 6 CAPs), because there are so few moves to talk about, it's not worth it for everyone to go through the trouble to make movepools. Any formal movepools will be deleted, so don't go through all that trouble! After a thorough discussion of moves, spark and I will place the moves based on this thread's consensus. Keep in mind that spark and I can disallow moves if they are deemed too competitive.

Plasmanta was made in XY, so it doesn't have ORAS Move Tutor moves or Gen 7 moves. Please limit your discussion to these only.

Plasmanta's current movepool (sans Aura Sphere) can be found here.

ORAS Move Tutor moves can be found here.

Gen 7 moves can be found here.

TM Change List (credit to spark)

:TM##: Gen 6 -> Gen 7
TM01: Hone Claws -> Work Up
TM28: Dig -> Leech Life
TM59: Incinerate -> Brutal Swing
TM67: Retaliate -> Smart Strike
TM70: Flash -> Aurora Veil
TM76: Struggle Bug -> Fly
TM94: Rock Smash / Secret Power -> Surf
TM98: Power-Up Punch -> Waterfall

It's not a snakey thread if we don't have questions!
1. Should Aura Sphere go into Plasmanta's level-up movepool or in it's egg moves? If in its level-up movepool, where?
2. What ORAS Move Tutor moves or Gen 7 moves should we consider?

 

[Okamu]

1. I support putting Aura Sphere in Egg Moves. The only non-Poison/Normal/Electric type moves in level up are Aqua Tail and Psywave, so I don't really see Aura Sphere fitting the level up pool's overall feel. Egg move is possible with Water 1, Clawitzer or Blastoise; just if anyone was wondering.

2. As for tutor moves, I would recommend Iron Tail, as Manta learns Aqua Tail and Poison Tail already. Other than that, ORAS tutors aren't showing much other than possibly Gastro Acid or Magnet Rise, but I personally don't care for either of those. Looking through the new Gen 7 moves, I personally don't see anything that I like either, but perhaps I missed something.

 

[sparktrain]

I made an alphabetical list of the ORAS move tutors so we know what we're dealing with. Fair warning, Plasmanta already knows some of these moves.

ORAS Move Tutors

After You
Aqua Tail
Bind
Block
Bounce
Bug Bite
Covet
Dragon Pulse
Drain Punch
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Earth Power
Electroweb
Endeavor
Fire Punch
Focus Punch
Foul Play
Gastro Acid
Giga Drain
Gravity
Gunk Shot
Heal Bell
Heat Wave
Helping Hand
Hyper Voice
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Knock Off
Last Resort
Low Kick
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Magnet Rise
Outrage
Pain Split
Recycle
Role Play
Seed Bomb
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Skill Swap
Sky Attack
Snatch
Snore
Spite
Stealth Rock
Super Fang
Superpower
Synthesis
Tailwind
Thunder Punch
Trick
Uproar
Water Pulse
Wonder Room
Worry Seed
Zen Headbutt

Okamu's suggestion of Iron Tail seems sound, as it's pretty standard for tailed Pokemon. Adding onto that, I'll suggest we add Snore since it's pretty much universal.

 

[Menshay]

Expanding on the above posts:

ORAS tutors already learned by Plasmanta:
Aqua Tail, Shock Wave, Signal Beam, Water Pulse

All ORAS tutors not currently learned by Plasmanta:
After You, Bind, Block, Bounce, Bug Bite, Covet, Dragon Pulse, Drain Punch, Drill Run, Dual Chop, Earth Power, Electroweb, Endeavor, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Foul Play, Gastro Acid, Giga Drain, Gravity, Gunk Shot, Heal Bell, Heat Wave, Helping Hand, Hyper Voice, Ice Punch, Icy Wind, Iron Defense, Iron Head, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Last Resort, Low Kick, Magic Coat, Magic Room, Magnet Rise, Outrage, Pain Split, Recycle, Role Play, Seed Bomb, Skill Swap, Sky Attack, Snatch, Snore, Spite, Stealth Rock, Super Fang, Superpower, Synthesis, Tailwind, Thunder Punch, Trick, Uproar, Wonder Room, Worry Seed, Zen Headbutt

Some potential flavourful additions among these:
- Block fits Plasmanta's very large size. Its description mentions "spread arms", but stuff like Bastiodon and Exeggutor gets it.
- Electroweb is strangely widespread among Electric-types (including stuff like Magnezone, Ampharos, Electivire and all the Pikaclones up to G6), but can act as speed control.
- Gastro Acid is a Poison move, but its Z-version raises speed
- Gunk Shot is another Poison move, though Plasmanta currently has little physical Poison coverage (as well as low attack). On a related note, I could see it getting Poison Jab due to its spiky tail.
- Iron Tail should be pretty much universal among Pokémon with a tail, and again, Plasmanta's attack is low.
- Magnet Rise is universal among non-Flying/Levitating Electric-types.
- Snore is almost universal.
- Skill Swap and Zen Headbutt fit Plasmanta's pseudo-Psychic typing, but Z-Skill Swap raises speed.
- not sure about Endeavor's and Helping Hand's flavour.

Nothing from G7 (including new TMs) seems especially fitting to me.

 

[Reviloja753]

Expanding on the above posts:

ORAS tutors already learned by Plasmanta:
Aqua Tail, Shock Wave, Signal Beam, Water Pulse

All ORAS tutors not currently learned by Plasmanta:
After You, Bind, Block, Bounce, Bug Bite, Covet, Dragon Pulse, Drain Punch, Drill Run, Dual Chop, Earth Power, Electroweb, Endeavor, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Foul Play, Gastro Acid, Giga Drain, Gravity, Gunk Shot, Heal Bell, Heat Wave, Helping Hand, Hyper Voice, Ice Punch, Icy Wind, Iron Defense, Iron Head, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Last Resort, Low Kick, Magic Coat, Magic Room, Magnet Rise, Outrage, Pain Split, Recycle, Role Play, Seed Bomb, Skill Swap, Sky Attack, Snatch, Snore, Spite, Stealth Rock, Super Fang, Superpower, Synthesis, Tailwind, Thunder Punch, Trick, Uproar, Wonder Room, Worry Seed, Zen Headbutt

Some potential flavourful additions among these:
- Block fits Plasmanta's very large size. Its description mentions "spread arms", but stuff like Bastiodon and Exeggutor gets it.
- Electroweb is strangely widespread among Electric-types (including stuff like Magnezone, Ampharos, Electivire and all the Pikaclones up to G6), but can act as speed control.
- Gastro Acid is a Poison move, but its Z-version raises speed
- Gunk Shot is another Poison move, though Plasmanta currently has little physical Poison coverage (as well as low attack). On a related note, I could see it getting Poison Jab due to its spiky tail.
- Iron Tail should be pretty much universal among Pokémon with a tail, and again, Plasmanta's attack is low.
- Magnet Rise is universal among non-Flying/Levitating Electric-types.
- Snore is almost universal.
- Skill Swap and Zen Headbutt fit Plasmanta's pseudo-Psychic typing, but Z-Skill Swap raises speed.
- not sure about Endeavor's and Helping Hand's flavour.

Nothing from G7 (including new TMs) seems especially fitting to me.

I'm opposed to Magnet Rise. It gives an albeit temporary immunity to Ground without taking the item slot with Air Balloon. I don't like the sound of that.

A move I would like to propose is Brutal Swing, as I can see Plasmanta swinging its body around in a more janky version of the movement Plasmanta does in its idle animation. I'm also good with all of the other moves presented in this post. As for Aura Sphere, I think egg move would be best.

 

[Cresselia92]

I'm opposed to Magnet Rise. It gives an albeit temporary immunity to Ground without taking the item slot with Air Balloon. I don't like the sound of that.

I don't see what's wrong with Magnet Rise, when stuff like Magnezon and Metagross get it. Running that move would imply not running a more useful coverage move, further limiting Plasmanta's already strapped moveslots. It should be fine.

Regarding other moves, I was thinking about Eerie Impulse. It's a flavorful move which could be somewhat related to electric rays, which are known for letting out pararalyzing waves to weaken their preys. I also support Poison Jab and Venom Drench, which could be related to stingrays and their venom glands.

And yeah, I would be fine with Aura Sphere being an Egg Move.

EDIT: Never mind the Eerie Impulse mention. I somehow skipped it while checking the moveset.

 

[snake]

I just want to point out that Plas already gets Eerie Impulse at Level 64. Also, Plasmanta gets Z-Encore, which also raises Speed, so unless any new moves (that raise Speed by one stage only) have more useful effects than Encore, then we shouldn't have to worry too much about them.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Electroweb probably should be given, since a number of Electric types get it who have literally nothing to do with webs. Magnet Rise is also probably a safe option.

Gunk Shot I feel slightly hesistant about, but its probably fine. Poison Jab is actually a better fit to Plasmanta, and should be added. Still not sure how Gastro Acid fits, as most mons who get it are either plants, snakes, or have fangs to inject it. Manta rays sting with their stingers, not any sorta of fangs.

Iron Tail is near-universal with mons with tails, and Snore is near-universal in general. No reason not to include it.

Nothing in the tutors really strikes me as flavor other than that, and no new gen 7 move strikes me as "Plasmanta". I totally understand the move limits of movepools, but could they not have included Venom Drench when it was originally made?

 

[Okamu]

I'm just going to state that I am firmly against Gunk Shot. Currently only 12 out of all 66 poison types receive Gunk Shot, roughly 18%. In comparison, out of the 63 Pokémon that learn Gunk Shot, 51 are not even poison typed. There is simply no precedent for a random poison type to learn gunk shot (it's statistically more likely for a Gunk Shot learner to not be poison typed), and with the exception of Dragalge (Specially biased) and Swalot (No bias), all the poison types that do learn the move are physically biased. All in all, I don't particularly see any reason for Manta to learn Gunk Shot in terms of flavor.

Poison Jab on the other hand, is perfectly fine and should be included. It currently learns Cross Poison, and with the exception of only Crobat all poison types that learn Cross Poison learn Poison Jab as well, so it should reasonably be included. Oh, and in case you're wondering, only Smeargle learns both Gunk Shot and Cross Poison so... further point against Gunk Shot in my opinion.

 

[Deck Knight]

As far as Plasmanta, here are my thoughts:

Aura Sphere seems fine as an Egg move. It can get it from Squirtle line or Clawitzer.

Tutors:
Aqua Tail*: Repeat
Block: Most very large Pokemon get this.
Electroweb: Pretty much every Electric type gets this.
Iron Tail: Pretty much everything with a tail gets this.
Shock Wave*: Repeat
Signal Beam*: Repeat
Snore: Universal Tutor
Water Pulse*: Repeat
Zen Headbutt: Mirror's Plasmanta's Psychic type coverage on the physical side.

Gen 7 TMs:
TM 09 Venoshock: It is surprising Plasmanta did not get this initially, but it works and I believe the updates should reflect a move all Poison types get.
TM 84 Poison Jab: Same reasoning above, Plasmanta should get the "all Poison types" TMs in its generational update.

Finally, since this is a minor update I believe Electric Terrain would be a fitting flavor move that while not introduced in Gen 7, would be a worthy addition in Level-up or Egg moves. I do not think it has much competitive viability, as Plasmanta too often draws counters rather than being able to set up. I understand it has a +1 Z-Move effect, however if Plasmanta draws in a Ground type it is basically a wasted effort to set up terrain.

Notes on a few moves:
Magnet Rise isn't universal on non-Flying / Levitating - Lanturn does not get it, probably because it's aquatic, as is Plasmanta all competitive reasoning aside.
Brutal Swing actually has pretty low distribution, mostly Fighting types, "violent" natured Pokemon (Dragons and a few offensive bugs) and serpentine Pokemon. It doesn't really fit Plasmanta.

 

[snake]

Hi guys, loving the discussion so far. Since discussion is trailing off, consider this post as your 24 hour warning.

These moves are repeats from Plasmanta's current movepool:
Aqua Tail, Water Pulse, Shock Wave, Signal Beam (repeats)

These new moves seem to have general support:
Block, Electroweb, Iron Tail, Snore, Zen Headbutt, Poison Jab

These new moves are controversial (i.e. been brought up and have met opposition):
Magnet Rise, Brutal Swing, Gunk Shot

These new moves have been mentioned but haven't gotten much discussion:
Venoshock, Electric Terrain, Venom Drench

 

[Cresselia92]

Magnet Rise isn't universal on non-Flying / Levitating - Lanturn does not get it, probably because it's aquatic, as is Plasmanta all competitive reasoning aside.

Plasmanta may be an aquatic Pokémon, but that doesn't mean that it can't learn the move. Stunfisk, another Pokémon that can be found in water ponds in the games despite not being Water-type, can actually learn Magnet Rise despite its aquatic nature, so it wouldn't be an unprecedented case. Besides, Plasmanta can learn many Psychic moves, and Magnet Rise could be a reference to both its Psychic and Electric powers. Seems fitting to me.

Now, to tackle other moves...

Brutal Swing doesn't seem very flavorful to me. Manta rays tend to ambush their preys rather than assaulting them brutally and viciously, so I don't really see this Pokémon learning that move.

Gunk Shot is naturally learned through levelling up by "dirty" Pokémon (Muk, Garbodor) or by Pokémon which spew something as either a form of attack or defense (Arbok, Octillery), and Plasmanta doesn't really fit in either category. I'm not opposed to the move, but I don't think it would fit it well.

Venoshock is a move that plenty of Poison-types learn and that requires some support to be used to its fullest, so I don't see why Plasmanta can't learn it. I approve it.

Electric Terrain seems a nice move for it to have, and considering that electric rays stun their preys by releasing some electricity around, I could see Plasmanta doing the same toward the ground to further weaken its opponents, in terms of flavor. Competitively speaking, it is a quite weak and somewhat unreliable and outclassed move, so there would be not harm in adding it.

Venom Drench is a move that I have mentioned, but I want to further look into it. This move is a move that is mainly employed by Pokémon which sting with poisonous spikes and thorns (Nidoran family, Roserade, Scolipede, Toxapex, Nihilego), by Pokémon with poisonous fangs (Ariados, Seviper, Crobat) or by Pokémon which spit corrosive toxins at their opponents (Muk, Swalot). And considering that we are talking about something based on a sting ray, it seems to belong comfortably to the first category.

 

[Okamu]

Notes on a few moves:
Magnet Rise isn't universal on non-Flying / Levitating - Lanturn does not get it, probably because it's aquatic, as is Plasmanta all competitive reasoning aside.

Yes, it isn't universal. However, it can't be denied that there is a very strong correlation. Observe the following.

All Electric Types that do not get Magnet Rise:
Arceus-Electric, Charjabug, Chinchou, Emolga, Lanturn, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Pikachu-Hoenn, Pikachu-Original, Rotom, Silvally-Electric, Tapu Koko, Thundurus, Vikavolt, Xurkitree, Zapdos

All Electric Types w/o Magnet Rise, Levitate, or Flying Typing
Arceus-Electric, Charjabug, Chinchou, Lanturn, Pikachu-Hoenn, Pikachu-Original, Silvally-Electric, Tapu Koko, Xurkitree

Take out the legendaries, alternate forms, and event Pokémon and the list drops to:
Charjabug, Chinchou, Lanturn

Three Pokémon. There are only three non-levitating, non-flying electric types without special aspects to them that do not learn Magnet Rise. Even taking the very first list of only non-Magnet Rise Pokémon, that's 15 out of all 53 electric types, roughly 30%, that don't learn Magnet Rise... and that's because they don't need to learn it or are special in some way (event or legendary). Just going on pure precedent here, there is no reason for Plasmanta not to learn Magnet Rise through tutor.