CAP Updates: Arghonaut Discussion (Complete)

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I admit I'm partial, since I'm looking at possibly my first succesful CAP proposal with Comatose. That said, I don't think the complex ban of Comatose + STalk is that complex from the flavor standpoint: Since we are adding a new ability, it might as well be that former gens Arghonauts were only Unaware (they were) and in those gens, Argho learned STalk from TM (so it doesn't destroy the potential of Unaware RestTalk set and keeps phasing, which IMO is one of the defining traits of Unaware Pirate). The only way to obtain Comatose Argho would be from Gen7, where it stopped learning STalk from TM.

I'm not that experienced with egg and other move-passing mechanics, but isn't that a similar situation in place with Clefable's Unaware + Softboiled illegality that AFAIK still hold?
While it is a nice thought, couldn't you technically just transfer a Gen 6 Argho with Sleep Talk, then breed it with a female Argho with Comatose?

Male Pokémon pass down compatible TMs (although I admit that the idea might be ST isn't compatible so it won't be passed down. I'm no breeding expert either lol), and females pass down abilities.

So if I'm not missing anything, it would be possible to get a ComaSTPhazer. I could be dead wrong, but I'm just saying.
 

G-Luke

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I hate the idea of Misty Surge on Argh as well, as if we do, might as well scrap the Scald idea. Fini is good with Misty Surge because its natural bulk and defensive typing is soo good it doesnt need to spam Scald like other Water types to check physical attackers. Argh has no such blessings, so getting off a burn would be very important for Argh (if and when Scald is eventually added). Yeah, and more than any other ability I believe, Misty Surge would completely overshadow Unaware. That aside, I'll throw my hat in for Iron Barbs.
 
I'm not that experienced with egg and other move-passing mechanics, but isn't that a similar situation in place with Clefable's Unaware + Softboiled illegality that AFAIK still hold?
Softboiled was a tutor move, which doesn't pass down like TMs do, which is why the illegality is there.

Edit: oh right, Sleep Talk used to be a TM... don't those not pass down once they've been removed as a TM though? That kinda illegality would still work.
 
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I hate the idea of Misty Surge on Argh as well, as if we do, might as well scrap the Scald idea. Fini is good with Misty Surge because its natural bulk and defensive typing is soo good it doesnt need to spam Scald like other Water types to check physical attackers. Argh has no such blessings, so getting off a burn would be very important for Argh (if and when Scald is eventually added). Yeah, and more than any other ability I believe, Misty Surge would completely overshadow Unaware. That aside, I'll throw my hat in for Iron Barbs.
Unaware would still have a place on bulky offensive teams, demolishing anything that attempts to set up on it, like Nasty Plot Voodoom. Misty Surge and Comatose may have more usage than Unaware, but in a metagame with HazeHawk running around, almost anything would overshadow it. If placed in OU without any other CAPs, where setup is everywhere, Argho would be a fantastic Pokémon and a physical alternative to Clefable, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But when HazeHawk is a centralizing force in the metagame, nobody runs setup. Most run Choice Band or Choice Specs. There are ways to countering this, but giving Argho something even worse than an ability that does next to nothing in the current metagame will not change anything.
 

G-Luke

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Iron Barbs is actually a very good ability, that punishes U-Turn, Physical attackers (and Grass Knotters). This ability is especially handy with access to reliable recovery
 

DarkSlay

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Okay, I'm ending discussions on abilities right now.

After some deliberation with users and my Generational Leader, I have come up with the ability slate we'll be using for this poll. Here are your choices for Arghonaut's second (Hidden) ability, in no particular order:

Technician
Misty Terrain
Iron Barbs
No Competitive Ability

Comatose was left off of the slate for a variety of reasons. Comatose on a Pokemon with Recover is extremely, extremely strong. Unlike Misty Surge, which is temporary, Comatose Arghonaut can /never/ be Burned or Poisoned. For a Pokemon that is naturally bulky to have a guaranteed 50% recovery move and status immunity...I think that's going to overshadow Unaware by a mile, and make Arghonaut exceedingly frustrating to take down. Furthermore, I'm not interested in getting into move removals at all. Even if we entertain the idea of removing Sleep Talk from Argh's set, that's an additional step in the process (it will have to mirror the discussion of Earth Power/Reflect Tomohawk), which places a fairly high bar on removals. Such discussion is going to be really awkward, too, since it's completely based in the theoretical and not in the actual.

As for other abilities mentioned but not on the slate, these abilities were left off due to lack of interest or discussion. These three abilities garnered the most discussion, the most support, and/or had good competitive arguments laid out for their inclusion.

The poll will be up momentarily.
 

DarkSlay

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Step 3A: Moveset Discussion

Misty Surge has won the poll! We now move onto Moveset submissions.

This discussion will be much stricter than ability discussions. Please try not to make short posts that do not contribute that much to discussion.

Movesets should be posted in the following format:
Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfil CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.
New moves must be brought up using this format and have thorough explanations and must have calcs to back up your claims. If you don't have correct, accurate, relevant calcs that match up with your set submission, I will be less inclined to take your post seriously. Please explain every move thoroughly, even ones that Arghonaut already has. If you need some reference for good posts, please look at Kerfluffle's moveset submission thread.

To start off, I'm going to bring up a few moves that have been previously discussed either in this thread or on Showdown!. Note that you are not limited to these moves for moveset purposes, these are just commonly discussed moves which may give you a framework to start out with. Let's start some of our movesets and discussion here:

Circle Throw
Scald
Spikes
Ice Hammer
Rapid Spin/Defog

Since this will be a long discussion, I'm going to indefinitely open discussion and post updates later on with time restrictions. Have fun!
 
Name: Empoleon, but with Recover
Move 1: Recover
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Defog / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Spikes / Stealth Rocks
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Nature: Impish

The defensive spread is built to allow Arghonaut to Recover stall out the Earthquakes on Guts-boosted Colossoil (though of note, Flame Orb doesn't work under his Misty Surge. The SpDef investment also allows it to take Special hits from pokemon like Unaware Clefable.

252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Arghonaut: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Arghonaut: 186-218 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So this is the point where Arghonaut edits goes completely too far. This set is incredibly good and functions completely differently from how Arghonaut was built to function. Essentially, this is the point where Arghonaut is completely unrecognizable after its edits. The takeaway is that either Arghonaut should have neither Defog nor Rapid Spin or Arghonaut should have neither Spikes nor Stealth Rocks.
 
Name: Unaware Hazard Setter
Move 1: Recover
Move 2: Circle Throw
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Scald/Ice Hammer/Earthquake/Gunk Shot
Ability: Unaware
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Impish
  • Recover is obvious, it's the best way to heal Arghonaut.
  • Circle Throw is the key of the Set: While being a weak STAB, it hunts the opponent out of the field which is mandatory against some Set-Up mons like Cawmodore or Aurumoth against who Argho would lose otherwise. Thanks to that, it is much harder to use Arghonaut as a Set-Up bait and you don't waste a slot for Roar.
  • Spikes is, as suggested during this discussion, the support move of the Set. It fits well on Arghonaut since it has a pretty good match-up match-up against most Spinner not named Tomohawk, depending of his coverage move. He can abuse of his Spikes while spamming Circle Throw, like Skarmory does with Whirlwind (Sableye is a big annoyance though).
  • Scald can be used as it punishes switch-in like Necturna (who doesn't care about Circle Throw), Metagross, Pinsir... Ice Hammer gives you a nice match-up against Zygarde, a very Dangerous set-up Mon (be careful of Toxic though), and does a lot to Lando-T, Salamence, Latios and Garchomp. The first two being able to OHKO Arghonaut. Earthquake kills Mollux and Kitsunoh who may get rid of your Spikes and can be a surprise to Koko, Marowak-A, Krilowatt and Crucibelle. Finally, Gunk Shot helps against Tapus and Clefable.
I completely disagree that Unaware Arghonaut is completely outclassed by HazeHawk. While this one takes reliably some Pokemon against who Arghonaut has trouble (Necturna, Serperior...), he fails to do anyhting else than stop some other Set-Up Mons (Crucibelle-M when Earth Power will be removed, Cawmodore...) or has no choice but to sacrifice himself to stop some Sweeper (Syclant Tail Glow, Psychic Aurumoth, Inferno Drive Volcarona...) while Argho can phaze or use them as a Spikes bait.

I apologise but when I try to C/C a calc, my calculator's freezes for some reason, but:
- On the physical side, Argho can take at least one hit from Sweepers Cawmodore, Aurumoth, Kartana, Guts Naviathan, Crucibelle-M, Garchomp, Scolipede and even Pinsir-M (97% max) and Phaze/Kill them.
- On the special side, he does the same against Manaphy, Volcarona, Pheromosa, Syclant, Serperior and the future NP Voodoom.

I obviously support every moves I mentionned in this Set. Concerning Rapid Spin/Defog, Arghonaut has a pretty bad macth-up against most Ghost type like Necturna, Mimikyu, Revenankh, Kitsunoh and especially M-Sableye so it will probably bad as a Spinner, while Defog doesn't fit well with Spikes. However, I don't mind if one of them or both are added.
 
I'd like to post in favor of adding Scald to Arghonaut's movepool. In my opinion, Scald mostly falls under the category of a consistency update. Every fully-evolved Water-type that isn't also an Ice-type learns the move with very few exceptions, meaning that from a purely flavor-based perspective, it's incredibly difficult to argue that Arghonaut wouldn't have received the move after a generational shift.

Now, Scald certainly has competitive implications, so I'll talk about those. First off, Arghonaut isn't a Pokemon that would use Scald as a source of massive damage output; it has a meager base 70 Special Attack and a much stronger base 110 Attack stat to work with. Scald is a move that would purely be used to benefit its bulky sets, particularly the Unaware sets, by allowing it to punish its switch-ins with a considerable chance of burning and crippling them. Might not be the best connection, but I'll use XY RU Qwilfish as an example. Qwilfish's base Attack is a full 40 points higher than its base Special Attack, just like Arghonaut. Despite this huge drop in damage output, Qwilfish often opted to run Scald over Waterfall on its bulky utility sets purely for the burn chance. This is precisely how Arghonaut would utilize the move. Pre-update, one of Arghonaut's biggest problems is that it lacks an effective way to take advantage of the free turn it generates by forcing something out; it's limited to pretty much Toxic and Knock Off. This is where Scald comes into play. It'd certainly see use on an Unaware wall set, and I'd wager that it'd still see occasional use on a Misty Surge set as well. To those saying Scald is useless on a Misty Surge set, remember when people were saying that same thing about Tapu Fini earlier in the generation? Burning non-grounded switch-ins as well as Tapu Bulu is reason enough to run Scald. Would you rather cripple Skarmory with a burn or tickle it with Waterfall?

Normally I'd post damage calcs for a move addition, but it's not terribly necessary here. As I explained above, Arghonaut wouldn't be running Scald to dish out massive damage due to its lower Special Attack. It'd be running Scald solely for the secondary effect. Scald would be a positive movepool addition as it's beneficial to Arghonaut's role and helps fix one of the problems we discussed early on in the thread. As such, I support its addition.

The remaining moves that DarkSlay listed aren't as straightforward as Scald, so I'll hopefully comment on those a bit more later.
 

Bughouse

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Misty Surge now puts Arghonaut into even more direct competition with Tapu Fini.

As a result, I don't think much needs to be done.

Tapu Fini can be the bulky water that can stallbreak and defog, while arghonaut can be the one that phazes or is Unaware.

I support Circle Throw and Scald (helpful particularly for unaware sets) and little else.

Maybe Ice Hammer for coverage.

But we can't make Arghonaut Tapu Fini with somewhat worse typing, but reliable recovery. That would be a step too far. i.e. NO hazard removal.
 

Deck Knight

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Name: Unaware Status Spreader
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Circle Throw
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Earthquake / Focus Punch
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Unaware
Item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
EVs: 204 HP / 48 Atk / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Nature: Careful

  • Arghonaut's primary role here is to spread status, which it can do through either Scald or Toxic. Scald is preferable for enabling its Water STAB, however it does little damage to anything it doesn't hit for super-effective damage.
  • Circle Throw allows Arghonaut to permanently phaze away opponent stat boosts while also achieving considerable chip damage.
  • Gunk Shot is a coverage move for Fairy types, and can 3HKO Tapu Fini or occaisionally 2HKO with Rocks and high damage rolls; It OHKO's Tapu Lele after Stealth Rock. Earthquake addresses Mollux, Plasmanta, and Crucibelle (none of which can OHKO Argho with this spread). Focus Punch as the third option works with the fact Arghonaut may be phazing in matchups the opponent finds disfavorable, and Focus Punch heavily penalizes switches even when the new switch in resists it.
  • Recover gives the set longevity and allows it to phaze or status multiple times.
  • Special Defense EV'd to be able to avoid a OHKO from Tapu Koko's Life Orb Thunderbolt [Calc: 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 204 HP / 228+ SpD Arghonaut in Electric Terrain: 338-400 (84 - 99.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock] and a 2HKO from Tapu Fini's Moonblast even if it crits once. [Calc: 0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 204 HP / 228+ SpD Arghonaut: 146-174 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock]
  • HP reaches 402 allowing Recover to restore 201 HP. Remainder of EVs split between Remaining EVs in Defense to provide more general bulk.
  • Choose Leftovers for maximum longevity and Rocky Helmet to punish U-turn and Rapid Spin, this strains Recover but provides Arghonaut a lot of opportunities for passive damage.
  • Bulky defensive Pokemon find it very difficult to score better than 3HKOs on Arghonaut, so it is very good at outlasting and phazing them.
  • Toxic can be run as an alternative to Scald, however with Gunk Shot being the favored coverage move Poison is already somewhat spoken for.

I am very, very wary on adding both hazards and hazard removal to Arghonaut. I think hazard removal would make it vie too much for Tapu Fini's slot on a team, and greatly, greatly prefer that if we choose a hazard it is Spikes and not Stealth Rock.
 
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reachzero

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Utility Pirate (Arghonaut) @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def/ 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Circle Throw
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Recover

With Misty Surge, Arghonaut suddenly becomes the best Zygarde counter in the game, ignoring Toxic and cleanly 2HKOing Zygarde with Ice Punch at +0, while still breaking its Substitutes with Ice Punch even at +2 (if Zygarde Coils as Argho comes in, then Coils again). Even with Defense EV instead of SpD, Argho takes 29.7 - 35% from SpD Mollux Sludge Bomb, while having a 56.3% chance to OHKO it with Earthquake. Fire Blast from Volkraken still only does 28.9 - 34% to Arghonaut, while it 2HKOs Volkraken with Earthquake. Arghonaut also laughs at Battle Bond Greninja (though not Protean). Circle Throw accentuates these matchups in that it can use the advantage turn to shuffle the enemy team, forcing more hazard damage in addition to the small damage from Circle Throw itself.

(Arghonaut) @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Circle Throw
- Earthquake
- Recover

Same EVs as above, but with Spikes instead of Ice Punch. Earthquake allows you to hit Mollux, which is good because beating it means keeping your Spikes up longer. Tapu Fini is less of a problem because it doesn't have Recover. The only Spinner that really consistently beats this Arghonaut is Tomohawk. Spikes are normally mediocre in CAP because Spin and Defog are so easy to get, but Arghonaut's bulk and access to Recover would make it a premier Spiker on a par with Skarmory.

Circle Throw is pretty important for Arghonaut because it would help a lot with its crushing 4mss--it can't hit every Pokemon that might come in on it, so phazing them out really helps. This is especially so when Arghonaut has Spikes, which means that two of Arghonaut's precious four slots are already accounted for. Circle Throw gives not only some damage but saves Arghonaut from being complete Taunt bait, so it is more useful than Roar in many situations, even considering Substitutes and the miss chance.
 
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I'm a fan of most of the movesets so far. I'm in favor of Argho getting Scald, Circle Throw, and Spikes. Here are a few sets from myself.

Cancer (Arghonaut)
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef (or Def) / 4 Atk (or SpAtk)
Nature: Relaxed/Sassy
Item: Leftovers
Moves:
Spikes
Circle Throw
Scald

Recover

This set is what Unaware sets were made for. Spikes is a great hazard to do chip damage, Circle Throw does more chip damage and phazes, Scald allows Argho to check Physical Sweepers, and Recover increases its time on the battlefield.

Bulky Offensive Pivot (Arghonaut)
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SpDef (or Def)
Nature: Adamant
Item: Terrain Extender/Life Orb
Moves:
U-Turn
Drain Punch
Waterfall
Recover

This set allows Argho to play a more offensive role in battle while still having utility. Misty Surge allows it to be a good receiver of VoltTurn as well as a good U-Turner too. It allows those who worry about status to switch or VoltTurn into Argho to prevent it, and then Argho can U-Turn back out into said Pokémon that is scared of status and lets them do their thing. On its own, it isn't too shabby either, with Waterfall and Drain Punch being its main STAB moves, and it can also use U-Turn as coverage against Psychic types.

Bulk Up Sweeper (Arghonaut)
Ability: Unaware/Misty Surge
EVs: 252 Def / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Nature: Adamant
Item: Life Orb/Terrain Extender
Moves:
Bulk Up
Drain Punch/Recover
Waterfall
Ice Hammer/Earthquake/Gunk Shot/Knock Off

You can either run Misty Surge to be free from status when setting up, or run Unaware and use Tapu Lele as a teammate to deal with HazeHawk. Drain Punch and Waterfalls are the main STABs, and Ice Hammer allows for an easier time checking Flying Types such as DDMence with Z-Fly. EQ deals with Mollux and Crucibelle among others, Knock Off deals with Psychic Types, and Gunk Shot deals with Fairy Types. If you are okay with less STAB options, then you can Recover instead of Drain Punch.


CALCS:
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 127-150 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 87-103 (21 - 24.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Volkraken Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arghonaut: 49-58 (11.8 - 14%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arghonaut: 114-135 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- 72% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 4 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut in Misty Terrain: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 464-548 (145.4 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO [This is without Life Orb!]
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 84-99 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
 
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Deck Knight

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We did discuss Unique Support, so now for something unique:

Name: Trick Room Support
Move 1: Trick Room
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: Ice Hammer
Move 4: Haze / Recover
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Icium-Z / Life Orb
0 Spe IVs
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 SpD
Nature: Brave

  • Trick Room gives Arghonaut unique utility as it shares no common weaknesses with most TR setters and has the bulk to withstand an attack and set up.
  • Close Combat and Ice Hammer to maximize damage under TR. Fighting/Ice is very good two move coverage, and Argho's Base 110 Attack is sufficient to use them. Ice Hammer additionally lowers Arghonaut's Speed, allowing it to compete with other TR mons.
  • Icium-Z gives Tomohawk two options: a 180 Base Power Subzero Slammer or Z-Haze, which restores it to 100% HP and then Hazes, removing Close Combat and Ice Hammer drops - it is an ideal move for the ending turn of Trick Room to get Arghonaut back up to full health.
  • Haze itself has independent utility, especially under Trick Room where you can remove the boosts of other sweepers.
  • Alternatively, Recover and Life Orb can be used for more consistency at the cost of Z-Haze or a breaking coverage move.
  • Defensive EVs avoid a 2HKO from defensive Tomohawk Air Slash, which Arghonaut can break with a successive use of Ice Hammer and Subzero Slammer. Must be careful of Tomohawk using Roost on the turn it selects Subzero Slammer, however. HP EVs make HP rest at 369, an ideal Life Orb number.
  • Misty Surge provides the TR team additional support and allows physically offensive Trick Room abusers to avoid burns. There may be situations where Unaware is more desirable, but as it doesn't negate Arghonaut's drops these situations are uncommon.

A few calcs:
252+ Atk Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Arghonaut Subzero Slammer (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 294-348 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Arghonaut Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roosting Tomohawk: 148-175 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 72 HP / 184 SpD Arghonaut: 152-182 (41.1 - 49.3%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 136-162 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Arghonaut Subzero Slammer (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 246-290 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. 72 HP / 184 SpD Arghonaut: 162-192 (43.9 - 52%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 216-255 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Roosting Tomohawk: 192-227 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 177-211 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Life Orb is less than ideal vs. Cyclohm but still hits plenty hard with Ice Hammer. If either of these mons switch in on Arghonaut under Trick Room, Arghonaut can win. Tomo has more counterplay by roosting on the Subzero Slammer, but Cyclohm can be successfully overcome. Additionally, both Cyclohm and Tomohawk do not fare well against traditional TR Pokemon like Reuniclus, this is just to show they are not permanently effective answers to Arghonaut if Argh is the last remaining TR user on the team.

One more set to abuse some of the quirks of Misty Surge:

Name: Bulky Band Pirate:
Move 1: Close Combat
Move 2: Waterfall / Ice Hammer
Move 3: Bullet Punch
Move 4: Earthquake / Ice Hammer
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 96 Spe
Nature: Adamant
  • Max Attack Adamant to maximize Choice Band damage. Speed EVs to outrun Defensive Rotom-W, which is 2HKO'd by Close Combat.
  • Close Combat for STAB, absolutely rolls through anything that doesn't resist it.
  • Waterfall for additional STAB or Ice Hammer for a strong coverage hit on the switch.
  • Bullet Punch 2HKOs Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, which with these HP/SpD EVs cannot OHKO Arghonaut with any move while Misty Terrain is in effect, even after SR. [Calc: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 28 SpD Arghonaut: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock]
  • Earthquake for additional coverage (OHKOs Tapu Koko which also can't KO Argh under Misty Terrain) or utilize aforementioned Ice Hammer.

It's a Choice Band set, so it's otherwise self-explanatory. The fact Misty Surge lets Argh revenge Lele is a new twist. In a neutral revenge situation you want to hit Waterfall to go for the OHKO (which you need Rocks to have a realistic chance to achieve). Once Lele is weakened, Bullet Punch produces this: 252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 162-192 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

Unless you get really screwed by rolls, once Lele is down to about 60% HP Argh can pick it off with an appropriate pivot. Lele switching into Close Combat approximately achieves this outcome: 252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 90-106 (32 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Basically if Lele switches into CC and you get a halfway decent roll, you can follow up with a KO at a later pivot and definitely get one if rocks are placed in the interim. I wouldn't recommend directly trying to revenge Lele when both are at 100%, but it *is* possible to do so.

Now, a Choice Band set may seem out of line for keeping Arghonaut close to its roots, but Arghonaut's concept was Decentralizer. This Band set simultaneously gives team support through Misty Surge, makes Arghonaut immune to Scald burns which it's going to love as it switches in, provides a bulky offensive attacker that can mitigate the impact of Tapu Lele - and indeed actually serves as new check to it in reasonably likely battle scenarios. Not a bad feat for a Pokemon whose typing makes that seem unlikely, and serving as a potent offensive threat is certainly something Tapu Fini can't do.

Oh, and a simple edit to NumberCrunchers:

Name: Empoleon, but with Recover
Move 1: Recover
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Defog / Rapid Spin
Move 4: Spikes / Stealth Rocks
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Nature: Impish Bold
This set has no relevant physical attacks (Rapid Spin is not being used for damage) but does have a relevant special attack and therefore Arghonaut should use Bold instead of Impish.
 
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So the discussion has been focusing on stall, but I have some interesting thoughts on a new move- U-Turn.
Bulky Offensive Pivot (Arghonaut)
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SpDef (or Def)
Nature: Adamant
Item: Terrain Extender/Life Orb
Moves:
U-Turn
Drain Punch
Waterfall
Recover
I have some questions to bring up that I will answer here.


Do you see Arghonaut's role as a pivot for its team?

Yes, as it becomes a bulkier option to Greninja, as it can live a Lele Psychic without terrain as well as Moonblast, while Greninja is OHKOed by the latter. With it living, it can retaliate with Waterfall, which 2HKOs Lele, or just U-Turn out to preserve it.bIt also sets up Misty Surge, but more on that later.

What does U-Turn do for its relevance, specifically?

It allows it to be a perfect VoltTurn core member alongside Lando-T. It already is becoming this role with Misty Surge, as something like Lando-T, Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile appreciate the guard against burns, while Argho appreciates them and others handling its checks.

Can it carry out its goal (bulky utility attacker) more effectively with U-Turn?

Yes. The key to this set is Misty Surge, which shields the team from status, including Arghonaut. It appreciates not having to worry about status for a while when using Terrain Extender. At the same time, so does the team. Like I said earlier, physical attackers hate burn. Also, bulkier teammates hate Toxic. With immunity to these, Argho can either stay in and go hog wild on the foe, or U-Turn into something that covers what it can't.

In conclusion, U-Turn would be a nice addition to Arghonaut, as it would give it a new niche as a bulky pivot, allowing it to be arguably better utility in some ways to Fini, and allows it to ignore status and pass it to its teammates.

(For Lele calcs, I'm not putting them here as my phone glitches and I lost all of the calcs I made, and I am not doing them again. If you want to check, do it yourself. I did them already, and I am not doing them again.)
 
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G-Luke

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Actually I was planning on highlighting U-Turn and another move....the great Knock Off

Name: Pirate Pivot
Move 1: U-Turn
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Drain Punch / Circle Throw
Move 4: Haze / Recover
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Icium-Z / Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 188 Def / 120 SpD
Nature: Impish

This set is generally supposed to be a pivot for very bulky teams, especially ones weak to Knock Off and / or status. While that role is currently filled by Tapu Fini, certain traits allow Arghonaut to have an edge.

  • Access to Knock Off - Knock Off allows Argh to punish switchins by ridding them of their items.
  • U-Turn - Argh's most defining move for this set, U-Turn solidifies Arghonaut's pivot role by switching into attacks, forcing out threats while U-Turning into team mates.
  • Phazing - While Argh gets Roar, this set is incredibly passive if Taunted, so if Circle Throw is ran to abuse its phazing abilities, its not Taunt bait.
  • Recovery - This is its biggest niche over Fini, as Fini has no way of healing itself other than Leftovers, which can be easily exploited. Argh, however, has reliable recovery to make sure it can consistently do what it does throughout the match.
 
Actually I was planning on highlighting U-Turn and another move....the great Knock Off

Name: Pirate Pivot
Move 1: U-Turn
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Drain Punch / Circle Throw
Move 4: Haze / Recover
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Icium-Z / Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 188 Def / 120 SpD
Nature: Impish

This set is generally supposed to be a pivot for very bulky teams, especially ones weak to Knock Off and / or status. While that role is currently filled by Tapu Fini, certain traits allow Arghonaut to have an edge.

  • Access to Knock Off - Knock Off allows Argh to punish switchins by ridding them of their items.
  • U-Turn - Argh's most defining move for this set, U-Turn solidifies Arghonaut's pivot role by switching into attacks, forcing out threats while U-Turning into team mates.
  • Phazing - While Argh gets Roar, this set is incredibly passive if Taunted, so if Circle Throw is ran to abuse its phazing abilities, its not Taunt bait.
  • Recovery - This is its biggest niche over Fini, as Fini has no way of healing itself other than Leftovers, which can be easily exploited. Argh, however, has reliable recovery to make sure it can consistently do what it does throughout the match.
I don't agree with Haze, as HazeHawk exists, but other than that, I'm with you!
 
Actually I was planning on highlighting U-Turn and another move....the great Knock Off
Argho already learns Knock Off...

Also, I see where that set is going with Icium Z Haze, but I would worry that the common set up sweepers in this gen, like Auru, Landy-T, Cawmodore, etc., already have Super Effective moves to hit you with. This was kind of the problem we had with Unaware in the present meta. You could use it, yes, but most of the mons you want to stop by using Unaware already can hit you with SE damage. You come in on these mons, assuming they're already set up, and they probably outspeed and land a SE, boosted hit on you, and you're dead. Sure, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, but with the frequency that it's true in this meta, it makes Z Haze just not that amazing of an option in my mind.
 
I'm just going to say it now. I do not support haze. We already are making Argho closer to Fini, but giving it Haze just for the Z move is pointless, as it gets Unaware and Recover already, and it is outclassed by HazeHawk anyways. I want to just focus on U-Turn, not these other moves. I'm okay with the phaze sets being discussed, but I want to hear more discussions on U-Turn. I'm not the UL, so you don't have to listen to me, but I think I should be able to get the discussion back on track about a certain move that I proposed.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Argho already learns Knock Off...

.
Oh I didnt realise as no one ever propsed a set including it.

I'm just going to say it now. I do not support haze. We already are making Argho closer to Fini, but giving it Haze just for the Z move is pointless, as it gets Unaware and Recover already, and it is outclassed by HazeHawk anyways. I want to just focus on U-Turn, not these other moves. I'm okay with the phaze sets being discussed, but I want to hear more discussions on U-Turn. I'm not the UL, so you don't have to listen to me, but I think I should be able to get the discussion back on track about a certain move that I proposed.
I understand your concerns, but I did highlight U-Turn in my dicussion. I didnt mean to undermine itvwith Z-Haze
 

snake

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(I have wifi for the night!)

Personally, I'm in favor of Scald, Circle Throw, and Ice Hammer now. Spikes are cool, not sure yet. I don't like Spin or Defog though. I'll be thinking about it and will post again on Friday or Saturday when I get back!
 

DarkSlay

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Great discussion so far! I'm going to pause the discussion for a bit until tomorrow, where I'll make a new post with my comments on some of the sets and some of the moves I think will and won't make it to Arghonaut's moveset. Thanks for being patient!
 

DarkSlay

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
All right, again, sorry for the delay, crunch time for me outside of CAP.
  • Circle Throw, Ice Hammer, and Scald seem to have a majority of positive support. I think it's safe to say that these three moves will be heavily considered for movepool additions, we don't need to discuss these moves much further. A lot of the sets that I'm reading have primarily focused on using Arghonaut as either a bulky phazer or bulky status spreader with these three moves, which I think is a viable, unique role for Arghonaut to fill.
  • I am leaning towards hazards (specifically Spikes) over hazard removal. I am convinced that Defog or Rapid Spin for Arghonaut would give it a role that already has heavy competition for (especially Defog), which competition (while not inherently bad) gives less incentive to use Arghonaut over other better suited Pokemon. Spikes, on the other hand, is a utility move that currently lacks representation in the tier. Spikes + Recover is a niche that is done by few (if none), which is neat. It also seems balanced considering Arghonaut's slow Speed and questionable defensive typing.
  • I am more prone to adding moves that were introduced post-Gen IV than adding moves available/discussed for Gen IV, with the exception of moves with significant competitive reasoning. Moves like Bullet Punch don't seem that competitive viable and was discussed in Arghonaut's project, I don't believe that such moves need to be included.
  • We need more discussion on Arghonaut as a pivot. Arghonaut with U-Turn/Parting Shot is an idea, but is it something that we want Arghonaut doing with its role as a Utility Attacker? What are the benefits and negatives of such a role? Let's focus on this while supplementing discussion with any other additions lacking discussion.
This discussion will be open for the next 48 hours, and controversial moves will be up for discussion for a poll.
 
I'd like to put in that U-Turn sounds incredibly unfun. Koko already gets really nice utility from being able to fast-pass Electric Terrain with Volt Switch, and he has by far one of the worst terrain. Argho being a very bulky mon that gets to slow-pass one of the best terrains is really obnoxious in combination with bulky beaters, which the format is overloaded with. With Parting Shot, the problems become even worse, because then the incoming mon can not only avoid getting statused, but can actively set up without fear of getting hit hard.
 
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