CAP 21 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

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Why would you open discussion for an idea's potential if you know you're not going to vote on it? You've got a lot of good notes, and a chance to better research how to make Patient Mega even more attractive for the next round. Just take it to IRC or the Kitchen and make the concept as strong as possible with everyone's help so that it stands a good chance of getting slated for CAP22. I think you're missing the point of "it's good, but not yet". That means it either isn't strong enough and needs more work, or it thinks too far ahead and outside of what's seen as feasible. In the case of Patient Mega, both are true.
 
Explanation: This CAP should teach us about the strategy in the metagame. A pokemon that frees up the field and clutters the opposition'field. This pokemon can leave a player breathing easy after rocks are gone from him valued charizard. This CAP shouldn't merely be a hazard junkie but could also be a wall of needed or whatever the player needs it to be. This pokemon should tell a player rethink strategies because it's on their team and this can run my plan with so and so and if it's not gone getting rocks up may be too risky would I lose a Mon for a hazard.
 
Explanation: This CAP should teach us about the strategy in the metagame. A pokemon that frees up the field and clutters the opposition'field. This pokemon can leave a player breathing easy after rocks are gone from him valued charizard. This CAP shouldn't merely be a hazard junkie but could also be a wall of needed or whatever the player needs it to be. This pokemon should tell a player rethink strategies because it's on their team and this can run my plan with so and so and if it's not gone getting rocks up may be too risky would I lose a Mon for a hazard.
I think the issue with this is that we already know a lot about hazards, both setting them and removing them. Additionally, it sounds a lot like Skarmory, something that is already a huge presence in OU.
 
Name: I Use My Own Weather, Thank You Very Much

General Description: A Pokemon that, in its base form, brings out weather, and in its mega form takes great advantage of that weather

Justification: With the advent of Generation VI, weather has suffered a great nerf due to its shortened effects. However, a Pokemon that sets weather in its base form and then takes advantage of it as a Mega bypasses this crucial flaw by eliminating the need to switch for the weather to be beneficial, allowing the weather to see more use by saving time. In this way, we can learn how a Pokemon and its Mega Evolution can complement each other optimally, with either one being a good Pokemon on its own, but together forming a single great force to be reckoned with.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Can we make the base form supply additional support to its team, as well as its Mega?
  • How can we limit the power of this Mega so that a Pokemon that capitalizes on its own weather does not become an extremely centralizing force that can't be stopped easily, even by unconventional Pokemon it is supposed to encourage the use of?
  • Which combination of weather and ability is most able to stop some of OU's most popular Pokemon, encouraging the rise of lower ranked Pokemon?
  • Does a certain weather condition require that a select type needs to utilize it for full viability? (Example: Can a Pokemon that isn't Steel/Rock/Ground benefit from the sandstorm condition?)
  • How would an increase in weather viability affect the usage of common OU Pokemon while bringing up lower Pokemon? (In other words, what kind of Gastrodon Effect would this create?)
  • To what extent would this Pokemon be able to bring down top threats while increasing the power of lesser Pokemon?
Explanation: Really, this concept was inspired by the fact that I wanted to think of a way that we would fully benefit from creating both a base form and a Mega. In this way, it would bot be a waste of time to create both of them, as both would be fully usable and the Mega would benefit from the base form. Additionally, this would force the base form to be the one that provides great team support, meaning there is a legitimate reason to not immediately Mega Evolve. Therefore, this project would allow us to learn a great deal about the pros and cons of Mega Evolving, something we don't get to do very often because most Pokemon, outside of a few circumstances (like Charizard not turning into Charizard X to avoid Ground moves) benefit from immediately Mega Evolving.

I know I haven't been very specific with my concepts in the past, but this time I really wanted to point out a way we could make both the base and the Mega great Pokemon in their own right, and this way seemed to make sense. Naturally, we would need to prevent this Pokemon from being overpowered, but we still need to make it a powerful force.

I'll end with a few examples of how this could work out in case I wasn't very clear above:
Base Form: Type - Grass ; Ability - Drought
Mega Form: Type - Grass/Dragon ; Ability - Chlorophyll
Such a Pokemon could be an individual sweeper in its Mega form, possibly with access to moves like one-turn Solarbeam, but a team resource in its base form, meaning when it would Mega Evolve would be a large decision that could make or break a person's strategy. Additionally, in its Mega form it prevents being overpowered by falling easily to things like Chansey, Talonflame, and Weavile. Additionally, it could rise the viability of Pokemon with Sap Sipper.

This example is, of course, just one possible direction out of many this project could go, with a number of factors to explore (as I mentioned earlier, it is largely unexplored how Pokemon outside of a few types perform with weather, so we could learn many new things. For instance, could a Water type succeed with Drought as an ability? What about a Flying type with Sand Stream? This can even extend to other areas, like a Drought Pokemon switching to a Flash Fire Pokemon, preventing opposing Fire types from benefiting. The possibilities are many, but there is just enough structure to make this an interesting project.
I love this idea alot, but I think it is almost 100% certain that we will end up with Drought or Sand Stream as our base form's ability just because Hail is too weak and Rain too strong, knowing from the get go that we have basically two options of abilities may make for a boring discussion later on.
 
I love this idea alot, but I think it is almost 100% certain that we will end up with Drought or Sand Stream as our base form's ability just because Hail is too weak and Rain too strong, knowing from the get go that we have basically two options of abilities may make for a boring discussion later on.
Thanks for the compliment!
However, I don't think we're just limited to sandstorm and sun. Since this Pokemon doesn't necessarily rely on team support, I think we could even make it viable with hail. Additionally, we could make it a rain Pokemon without making it too strong with the right planning. We really can do a lot with proper planning and discussion.
If we really wanted, we might not even need a weather-inducing ability and we could give it weather inducing moves that it can safely use in the base form but would not be viable once it becomes a Mega. However, that may not be the most viable option.
Either way, even if the base form was limited to a few abilities, we would still need to discuss what ability on the Mega form would make it the most viable, which could bring interesting possibilities.
 
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ginganinja

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@ I Use My Own Weather, Thank You Very Much

So basically, you get a "one time" ability like Cloro or Sand Force that only lasts for like, 4-5 turns, and then the ability is useless, because you don't have your weather inducing ability anymore. Am I the only person that sees this as a massive flaw? Like, you are already committing yourself to a weather concept that just isn't good anymore, for a multitude of reasons, and now you want to make your inducer dependant on it.
 
@ I Use My Own Weather, Thank You Very Much

So basically, you get a "one time" ability like Cloro or Sand Force that only lasts for like, 4-5 turns, and then the ability is useless, because you don't have your weather inducing ability anymore. Am I the only person that sees this as a massive flaw? Like, you are already committing yourself to a weather concept that just isn't good anymore, for a multitude of reasons, and now you want to make your inducer dependant on it.
Well in my mind it is like we are making a Mega Sharpedo who is actually good (sharpedo is usable but not much more than that) if we make this right, but unlike Megapedo it can be a weather setter for half of the match (though without the boosting rock the mon will probably be very meh in this role) till we decide it is time to megaevolve and abuse our own weather, just as an example if base form hondoom had drought, megadoom would be 10x better.
 

ginganinja

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Yes, I know what your getting at, but there is nothing to learn from it. Weather in XY is generally far too much trouble than its worth using, you need a REALLY good concept to make it work, and to date, there has been nothing. Furthermore, this very concept isn't really weather focused, the concept is pretty much "Make a base mon that encourages itself to stick around, then at an optimal stage in the match, you Mega Evolve for that situational boost to STABs / Speed and attempt a sweep". Its really no different to running something like Natural Gift + Berry, or the SD Rock Gem Terrakion of BW (or when Dragon Gem DD Salamence was a fad), a sweeper waiting until conditions are perfect before unleashing a one time boost of power that blasts past standard checks and counters.

There isn't really anything to learn from this (the general principle exists, just not one weather specific) and so, I'm not approving it.
 
Name: Topsy-turvy

General Description: A Pokemon that is defined by its use of the move Topsy-Turvy

Justification: Similar to Parting Shot, Topsy-Turvy is a completely new move introduced in Gen VI that has a lot of potential but doesn't seem to have been explored sufficiently; Malamar is simply not viable enough in OU at this point, and as such we haven't seen much use this generation, even in the lower tiers. However, with the huge number of set-up sweepers like the fearsome TG Manaphy or DD M-Altaria/M-Char-X this gen, Topsy-turvy offers a lot of potential to give defensive teams a saving grace as well as offensive teams some momentum, and definitely can be made to work without being broken.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Whether it's creating a set-up opportunity or deterring another sweeper from setting up, what is the best way to use Topsy-Turvy?
- Considering Malamar almost never uses Topsy-Turvy, even in NU, what should any set be willing to sacrifice to use Topsy-Turvy?
- What makes Topsy-Turvy different from, say, Haze? How will set-up sweepers counter the mere presence of CAP21?


Explanation: Topsy-Turvy has a lot of potential paths, like a stall-mon that turns the tables on stallbreakers like Manaphy, or a quick support on offense that acts as a catch-all to create set-up for other sweepers on your team. It has the potential to reduce the matchup problem for stall to a certain extent, and can also deter some mons on offense. That being said, the move is extremely strong and with the right support, CAP21 can definitely impact our metagame while teaching us about a new aspect - a new move.
 
Name: Who knows?

General Description: A mon that can function in several distinctly different ways, but is still not overcentralizing, and can abuse the predictableness of several OU threats.

Justification: A lot of pokemon in the OU metagame have one or two sets that while working very well, become predictable and eays to counter, and it also makes the game very boring. Bisharp with its SD Sucker Punch set, BellyJet Azu, Toxic Stall Gliscor, Fake-kick Lopunny, Hydrobolt Rotom-W, Leaf Storm Serp, BraveBlitz T-flame, the list goes on and on. This CAP mon would keep trainers on their toes about which set this pokemon could be using and how they built their set, with each one having distinct and diferent checks and counters. It would mix up the meta game a little and make people actually think about what they’re doing before they just BirdSpam or Stall Everything. Now I know what you’re thinking, this may sound like an OP pokemon but I suggest it be a speedy mon with equal but average defense and offense, which can also utilize moves like Power Trick or Topsy Turvy, even Guard Swap/Split, or Heart Swap. You could Heart Swap on intimidate users to take out threats the likes of Gyarados and Lando-T, to make them think twice about the typical Intimidate strategy. Or topsy turvy on set-up sweepers that are common in OU like M-Char X. And then in the middle of battle you could Power Trick and go on the offense or defense based on your evs and nature. Its mainly used as a trickster type of pokemon that you don’t know what youre gonna get hit with until you get hit by it. It will make people actually strategise and think about the game without just using HyperOffense or Toxic Stalls.


Questions To Be Answered

1. How

2. How does this effect the HyperOffense style of play so common in the Metagame?

3. How can we make a CAP like this while not overcentralizing and making it toxic to the metagame?

4. Is the trickster style of play viable, or does Hyper Offense truly reign supreme?

Explanation: BTW this is my first Cap Project Submission. Anyways, the proposed mon’s main thing should be that it has equal stats, and therefore no true way to play it. It might have some tricky moves that are hard to play around and you can often play mind games with like the aforementioned moves above. Of course, this will have move slot syndrome, but that’s what makes it so interesting to use and make. It's main purpose is to 1. Play mind games with the opponent, and make them think about the game 2. Punish Set-up Sweepers and 3. Stop the HyperOffense Trend in the OU Metagame. This mon should either get Prankster or Magic Guard.
 
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vyomov I love this idea, but I don't really believe in your examples for the paths we could take, because they don't seem very viable. All I can think of is a Prankster mon with some bulk to stay alive at it switches in and out, and that isn't very exciting.

Samuraitt A concept called Anything Goes that's very similar to yours was already rejected.
 
Name: Defensive protean

General Description: A Pokemon using protean for defensive purposes

Justification: Protean is obviously a great ability, allowing for any move to be stabbed, and that's why its main abuser, greninja, used it. But it also allows it user to change type, which could be invaluable for a defensive pokemon, allowing him to resist a variety of attacks with the right prediction, especially if given prio moves. High Jump Kick incoming? You can go to ghost with shadow sneak. You don't feel being thundebolted? hopefully you spiked last turn. You can potentially resist any incoming move, just as your opponent can supereffectively hits you if he predicts right.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Can protean be used for defence?
- Will prediction allow a potentially otherwise average mon to be great?

Explanation:
Predictions and plays are the main point of competitive pokemon. This mon will emphasise them allow them to go at full effect, as depending on said plays, he can range from and undefeatable wall that resists and is immune to basically everything to "that mon that did nothing and got OHKO'd".
 

ginganinja

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K so this is going to be a WIP for like a week or so, but I'm putting this hear because people are clueless.

A Guide to Concept Creation

-Firstly, get competitive experience. I don't just mean in OU, I mean in general, because it is really, really obvious if you don't know what you are talking about. If you're concept mentions pokemon like "Anger Point Tauros", or "Torterra", or "Castform", I will infract you, period. Currently, CAP makes pokemon for the OU metagame, and even if that changes, CAP's metagame will likely have a large percentage of OU pokemon in it anyway, so please get an idea as to how the game works and is played. There are usage statistics onsite, there are SQSA threads in every tier forum, there is the Battling 101 forum, there really isn't an excuse for not having a basic understanding of the metagame. Learn it, or hold off on posting concepts until you do.

-Next, check to see if your concept isn't already accomplished by an already existing OU pokemon. Again, it legitimately takes like 10 seconds to make a post in a SQSA thread saying something along the lines of "Hey guys I was wondering what strategies or pokemon people use to counter Volt Turn". If you get an answer like "Garchomp", then don't make an anti volt turn concept, because we don't learn anything from it, the concept already exists in a pokemon.

-Next, check to see if your concept isn't already done by a CAP pokemon, OR a previously accepted CAP concept. Seriously, read approved concepts, because not only does that give you an example as to what a good concept looks like, you can be 100% sure if your concept is/isn't already similar to an existing concept. Which means you avoid wasting both mine and your own time. Its win/win!

-Check to see if you're concept is viable. Just because you might see Tyranitar in OU does NOT mean that something like a weather pokemon CAP is a great idea. Obviously, their are subjective examples that might be an exception to this rule, but please think about if your concept would actually work in OU. An easy trick is to look at a concept, imagine what you think it might turn out like, and then think "would I absolutely use this to achieve #1 on an OU ladder. Not to use it because its "cool", or uses a gimmick that you always wanted to see used once. I mean, can you see yourself using this pokemon to actual success, rather than novelty value.

-Don't railroad. Seriously, if I see a concept that ends in "This pokemon should use Prankster or Magic Guard" I will call you out, because that concept is illegal. I want concepts that are versatile, that gives you options on as many stages of the process as you can. Making a concept around a particular move is fine, making a concept thats essential towards needing a specific typing or ability probably isn't, because it creates 0 discussion and TL/ TLT hate that with a passion. Pick something with multiple different avenues to explore, without making it too general.

More later, I could prolly write a novel on this.
 
Name: Who knows?

General Description: A mon that can function in several distinctly different ways, but is still not overcentralizing, and can abuse the predictableness of several OU threats.

Justification: A lot of pokemon in the OU metagame have one or two sets that while working very well, become predictable and eays to counter, and it also makes the game very boring. Bisharp with its SD Sucker Punch set, BellyJet Azu, Toxic Stall Gliscor, Fake-kick Lopunny, Hydrobolt Rotom-W, Leaf Storm Serp, BraveBlitz T-flame, the list goes on and on. This CAP mon would keep trainers on their toes about which set this pokemon could be using and how they built their set, with each one having distinct and diferent checks and counters. It would mix up the meta game a little and make people actually think about what they’re doing before they just BirdSpam or Stall Everything. Now I know what you’re thinking, this may sound like an OP pokemon but I suggest it be a speedy mon with equal but average defense and offense, which can also utilize moves like Power Trick or Topsy Turvy, even Guard Swap/Split, or Heart Swap. You could Heart Swap on intimidate users to take out threats the likes of Gyarados and Lando-T, to make them think twice about the typical Intimidate strategy. Or topsy turvy on set-up sweepers that are common in OU like M-Char X. And then in the middle of battle you could Power Trick and go on the offense or defense based on your evs and nature. Its mainly used as a trickster type of pokemon that you don’t know what youre gonna get hit with until you get hit by it. It will make people actually strategise and think about the game without just using HyperOffense or Toxic Stalls.


Questions To Be Answered

1. How

2. How does this effect the HyperOffense style of play so common in the Metagame?

3. How can we make a CAP like this while not overcentralizing and making it toxic to the metagame?

4. Is the trickster style of play viable, or does Hyper Offense truly reign supreme?

Explanation: BTW this is my first Cap Project Submission. Anyways, the proposed mon’s main thing should be that it has equal stats, and therefore no true way to play it. It might have some tricky moves that are hard to play around and you can often play mind games with like the aforementioned moves above. Of course, this will have move slot syndrome, but that’s what makes it so interesting to use and make. It's main purpose is to 1. Play mind games with the opponent, and make them think about the game 2. Punish Set-up Sweepers and 3. Stop the HyperOffense Trend in the OU Metagame. This mon should either get Prankster or Magic Guard.
Samuraitt, I think you should have looked into your "examples" a little better before posting. While I'll give you bisharp is pretty monotone, pokemon like azu, lopunny, rotom, serp, and t-flame all have at least three viable sets. A few of them have drastically different sets. Also your concept is VERY broad. You shouldn't list specific abilities on a concept, with a few exceptions, and you shouldn't list what the BST should be either. Your concept is unfortunately completely illegal.
 

jas61292

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As of this policy thread we will be starting up a more traditional Concept Submission thread in place of this one. The concept stage for CAP 21 will from here on out be run as it was during CAP 19 and earlier. Submissions made in the concept workshop, and especially those that were approved, can certainly still be considered for CAP 21, though they will need to be re-posted in the new submission thread. With that said, if there is such a concept here that you like, and you did not submit it yourself, please talk with the original submitter first before posting it in the new thread, as they should have the right to make the submission if they so choose.

Thank you for your submissions, and I'll see you over in the new CAP 21 Concept Submission thread.
 
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