Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

I would place Terrakion at A. Terrakion beats quite a lot of stuff in these very rankings, including the beast itself (Kanga), Zapdos, Charizard, Hydreigon, and many others. It can do this through amazing coverage in CC, Stone Edge, EQ, and a few more. Terra also has a very nice Speed tier, letting it outspeed a good but of the tier. However, something no one has brought up/many people don't use is Sash Terrakion. Sash Terra can beat a lot of stuff it otherwise loses to, such as Band Talon and Greninja. Another underated aspect is Quick Attack, which, as weird as it sounds, beats the many Focus Sash users in the tier. I wouldn't put it any higher because there is also stuff in these ranks that handles it, but I find myself bringing Terra quite a lot due to its ability to handle such a good bit of the metagame.

Lets do this:
Terrakion for A-, my reason is this, he covers both Mega Kangaskan and Aegislash, top tier threats.
Checks for Aegislash:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 174-205 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 88-105 (27.2 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 262-310 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 376-444 (116 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
He can plain on kill aegislash with just EG, and bulk doesn't really change the check much, just means aegi cant kill Terra even more
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 118-140 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Blade: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 135-159 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 67-81 (20.7 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Checks for Mega Kang:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 69-82 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
Plus Terra gets the +2 atk boost and even without the boost can will it with Close C
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 390-458 (111.1 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 348-411 (107.7 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While it can OHKO Terra with EG, Terra can outspeed it even without C scarf (must be jolly/spd nature though)
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 52-63 (16 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 133-157 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You may want to use some hide tags when posting a lot of calcs. ( )
 

Age of Kings

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B+

I agree with what has been said about Greninja. It seems like an appealing revenge killer at first sight, but one has to remember its fragility and even with Protean, it struggles to hold the power of other heavy hitters without LO.

While I'm a fan of Terrakion and agree with its placement in A-/A, I'm skeptical of its matchup vs. Aegi. The situation posited is not very realistic because;

1. Nearly half of all Aegi carry Weakness Policy. Terrakion has to either rely on lucky Rock Slide flinches or SD to overpower Aegislash.

2. Terrakion won't be getting that SD EQ in if said Aegislash is physical or runs any attack: (these calcs are for Quiet and min Atk)
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 106-126 (63.4 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 36-43 (21.5 - 25.7%) -- 1.3% chance to 4HKO

81.4% of Aegi run Shadow Sneak, 51.8% run Sacred Sword.

3. And that's assuming said Aegislash doesn't run Flash Cannon, which 26.4% do.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 186-218 (111.3 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, I nitpick this because one of Terrakion's strengths are not only what it does check (and it realistically checks Kanga, most variants of Charizard, Talonflame, and Tyranitar), but the fact that it does a massive amount of damage to even unfavorable matchups on the way out.

For instance;
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 102-121 (49.2 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

Granted, some Azu are going to run 252 / 132 Def to avoid the 2HKO from Tyranitar / Terrakion Stone Edge but the fact that people are forced to EV them properly speaks volumes of Terrakion's power. One of Terrakion's better "checks" will have difficulties switching in if it is running less defense.

Rotom-W is a coinflip. It's entirely contingent on what set it runs and whether the alrighty WoW / Hydro Pump connect. If you really want to, you can gamble with Rock Slide flinches.

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 70-84 (44.5 - 53.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

252/252 Rotom is very unrealistic even for Bold. Most skilled players will put some investment in SpD for Charizard-Y or Speed for enemy Rotom, base 80s, and potentially other mons around its speed bracket. Even dropping down to 212 Def, for example,

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 73-87 (46.4 - 55.4%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO

This is of course discounting Sitrus Berry but even Rotom is in a sketchy situation and must tread caution around Terrakion.

Now, a lot of things do a lot of damage to "checks". Terrakion is nowhere near special in this regard, but what is important is that it fulfills a valuable offensive threat to a team because there are few situations in which it is useless. In Battle Spot, basically going out with a bang and leaving your enemy at ~50% HP to clean up at the end of the game or being able to kill it from that HP range on the vast majority of the mons in the format is an impressive feat imo, which makes Terrakion a great lategame mon. The only thing that can really screw you consistently are Landorus-T, Cress, Gliscor (I've never seen this?) and maybe Slowbro.
 

Ares

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I'm gonna back Brobats nom on Ferrothorn. It should probably be A+ solely for the fact that you can beat Mega Kanga with it (even drain punch variants). Then on top of that it can check / counter multiple other top tier threats. Recovery was brought up but honestly I never found myself wanting for more HP when I was in vs a physical attacker. Usually Leech Seed + protect is enough to give ferro enough HPs to live. Also on top of that I usually only bring him when I see mega kanga anyways, if the concern is that he might be to passive vs other things then you don't have to bring him unless you see mega kanga.

Tl;dr I think A+ suits Ferrothorn but I would be fine with A.
 

Pyritie

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I'm gonna back Brobats nom on Ferrothorn. It should probably be A+ solely for the fact that you can beat Mega Kanga with it (even drain punch variants). Then on top of that it can check / counter multiple other top tier threats. Recovery was brought up but honestly I never found myself wanting for more HP when I was in vs a physical attacker. Usually Leech Seed + protect is enough to give ferro enough HPs to live. Also on top of that I usually only bring him when I see mega kanga anyways, if the concern is that he might be to passive vs other things then you don't have to bring him unless you see mega kanga.

Tl;dr I think A+ suits Ferrothorn but I would be fine with A.
That and it's also fantastic against any rain teams you might come across
 

Age of Kings

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A

I agree that Ferrothorn absolutely belongs in A, although some variants that I've seen have trouble vs EQ Adamant Kanga depending on the spread. Most Ferrothorn split defenses because it can tank so much although the majority are concentrated on Def. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but from experience, the smart Kanga player sees Ferrothorn coming from a mile away and can see it as an opportunity to be outplayed. I'm also being nitpicky.

I'll be doing some cleaning and housekeeping this weekend; any objections to Cress, MMawile, Terrakion, and Thundurus in A?
 
Nominating Landorus-I for A or A-


I think this thing is incredibly underrated in the format. Close to nothing can switch in on Landorus' coverage. And the amount of pokemon that it just straight up OHKOs is really disgusting. Two of those mons are Aegislash and Kan btw(although Focus Blast for Kan is a bit shaky, but still). Landorus can guarantee you at least one kill almost every game. When Landorus comes in, people are forced to sack a mon, or take a big hit. Those big hits can really help the rest of your team pull through as well. And if people are unprepared for it, or even make one bad switch, it has a pretty good chance of rolling through all 3 mons they bring.
It's in a great speed tier too. Not an amazing speed tier, but just above the big 100 which is all it needs.
 
I wouldnt pick cresselia in A, because i dont think its that threatening. It is bulky, of course, but with the hard ghost (Aegislash, gengar) and dark hitters and the mega bug pokemon I think its too easy to take down cresselia for being in A. Those three types are so common these days now steel is nerfed.
 
Nominating Pinsir-mega for B+
Pinsir is a really strong pokemon, with its decent physical bulk, it can take a neutral physical really well letting it set up on some attacks. Once you have a swords dance up you can spam Return. Meet something faster than you, Quick Attack! If they resist it, Close Combat or Earthquake. But the 4x weakness to ice and rock hinders it's potential.
 

Age of Kings

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I've cleaned up the OP with stuff that I feel has been discussed or had few objections. There's no more "pending" stuff! Also threw Landorus-I in A.

I wouldnt pick cresselia in A, because i dont think its that threatening. It is bulky, of course, but with the hard ghost (Aegislash, gengar) and dark hitters and the mega bug pokemon I think its too easy to take down cresselia for being in A. Those three types are so common these days now steel is nerfed.
I don't agree with this because it's one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the metagame with good sustain, status to cripple everything, and an all-purpose defensive check to Kanga, Garchomp, etc. It is true that it has some solid checks and some of them are common, but your opponent is required to bring them, thus limiting the choices they can make on team preview. If your opponent does not bring those specific checks (of which there are few and not as common as claimed), then Cresselia can stall out entire teams on its own. I think that Cress is very deserving of A because it's one of the few defensive threats that you need a dedicated slot or Taunt for (you can't really chip at it) and even if you have a plan it will pose a threat to many teams.

EDIT: Also Lunar Dance is one of the best support moves available in the format.
 
I agree with Pinsir going B+, or B even. It's a really great sweeper and has a fantastic speed tier. But there's still a lot of common mons that can deal with it easily that should keep it outside of A range, potentially even down to B. Mons like zapdos, rotom-w, thundurus, talonflame, and terrakion, among others, can handle pinsir really well even after it SDs. It's main problem is that it has many common threats that are bringing it down and it often won't find a good opportunity to set up an SD.

It's still extremely powerful despite this though and has to potential to tear through opposing teams if it has a good matchup. But you need to play well against Pinsir's checks and counters or else it won't be doing much for you.
 
I've cleaned up the OP with stuff that I feel has been discussed or had few objections. There's no more "pending" stuff! Also threw Landorus-I in A.



I don't agree with this because it's one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the metagame with good sustain, status to cripple everything, and an all-purpose defensive check to Kanga, Garchomp, etc. It is true that it has some solid checks and some of them are common, but your opponent is required to bring them, thus limiting the choices they can make on team preview. If your opponent does not bring those specific checks (of which there are few and not as common as claimed), then Cresselia can stall out entire teams on its own. I think that Cress is very deserving of A because it's one of the few defensive threats that you need a dedicated slot or Taunt for (you can't really chip at it) and even if you have a plan it will pose a threat to many teams.

EDIT: Also Lunar Dance is one of the best support moves available in the format.
This is not an argument, but on the viability rankings from overused cresselia is listed as b-. I know that battlespot is different, but how can it be that different that it goes from b- to s rank?
 
Last edited:

Pyritie

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This is not an argument, but on the viability rankings from overused cresselia is listed as c-. I know that battlespot is different, but how can it be that different that it goes from c- to s rank?
Because you can only bring 3 of your 6 pokemon to a battle, specialised walls (i.e. physical only or special only) aren't as effective unless your opponent only has either special attackers or physical attackers and not both. Walls that can tank hits from both sides, like Cresselia and Porygon2 are more effective here. (Speaking of which, Porygon2 for A- or B+ maybe? Knock off isn't as common as it is in OU)

Also Lunar Dance is great. What? You thought you almost KO'd my mega kangaskhan? Time for round 2!
 
Because you can only bring 3 of your 6 pokemon to a battle, specialised walls (i.e. physical only or special only) aren't as effective unless your opponent only has either special attackers or physical attackers and not both. Walls that can tank hits from both sides, like Cresselia and Porygon2 are more effective here. (Speaking of which, Porygon2 for A- or B+ maybe? Knock off isn't as common as it is in OU)

Also Lunar Dance is great. What? You thought you almost KO'd my mega kangaskhan? Time for round 2!
Yeah okey, thats true, but then i think porygon2 is even better because porygon2 is also very strong offensive-wise. Id go for a- for porygon.
 

cant say

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This is not an argument, but on the viability rankings from overused cresselia is listed as b-. I know that battlespot is different, but how can it be that different that it goes from b- to s rank?
Better scrap this project then and just refer to the OU list instead...

In all seriousness though, this meta is so different. Things like 3v3 instead of 6v6, item clause and different ban list (M-Kang, Aegi etc. being allowed) means that there are several things that are not as good as they are in the smogon metagame and vica-versa. I know you even acknowledged that you understand Battle Spot is different to OU, but you just should avoid bringing it up in the first place.

Agreeing that M-Pinsir is good here but bird-spam is pretty well accounted for with Talonflame running amock. It also suffers from the same thing that all mega sweepers have trouble with, not being able to hold a Lum berry hurts it's set up and sweep potential. He needs a good team matchup to really succeed... I'd agree on B-rank

I'm not super experienced in using P2 but I have faced it a lot and it's not a massive threat so I think A- is a bit high. It has great defensive stats and makes a great wall against several things but because it shares the same typing as the king queen of Battle Spot (M-Kang) most teams are prepared to dish out a powerful fighting type move (thinking of Terra, Luke, 'Ken etc. here). B rank would probably be high enough
 
This is not an argument, but on the viability rankings from overused cresselia is listed as b-. I know that battlespot is different, but how can it be that different that it goes from b- to s rank?
It's A rank, not S rank. And people above me have explained well enough why there's a big difference between the OU ranks.


As for Porygon2, i'm really not sure where I'd put it, maybe around B or B-. I wouldn't put it into A range because Cresselia does nearly the same thing as P2 but much better. Cresselia can run rocky helmet and become a check to Mega Kan, P2 can't do that. Cresselia also has a lot more options with things like Lunar Dance and Calm Mind.
 

Jibaku

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As someone who has used Ferrothorn in virtually every team I can't really agree with it being in A+. Its lack of immediate damage output (short of CB) for a slow tank has some issues when you add in the fact that its two weakesses are pretty abusable. Special note to that 4x fire weak as it allows people to cheese it with random fire moves (Latios, Kangaskhan, Garchomp) which can make things complicated. And surprise sets are kinda strong in this meta. Furthermore, its vulnerability to Will-o-Wisp can really get in the way when it's trying to handle Rotom-W and occasionally Gengar. Its utility isn't exactly anything special either, although it's definitely not bad.

Of course there has to be a reason Ferro is in so many of my teams. It does a surprising amount of residual damage and its typing patches so many demands. That said however Ferro does invite a lot of mean things to switch into it and it's kind of hard to deal with them. I believe that he is A tier.
 

EnGarde

Not Dead Yet
This is not an argument, but on the viability rankings from overused cresselia is listed as b-. I know that battlespot is different, but how can it be that different that it goes from b- to s rank?
It's A rank, not S rank. And people above me have explained well enough why there's a big difference between the OU ranks.
I think there is a lot of value in freekhoorn's question. While the 2 formats are wildly different, asking why something is rated differently here can help us all explore and understand how pokemon can fit into different roles in this format than in OU.

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but cress is a pretty good counter to mega kangaskhan, which alone affords her a lot of leeway in ranking. She is bulky enough with reliable recovery to fully utilize rocky helmet to punish mega mom's parental bond ability, she has options to stall out sucker punch, mega mom doesn't typically carry crunch in this meta-game (and even still, using calcs from one of the unrefined stock set on PS's damage calc set to level 50, crunch is still only a 3HKO --
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 93-111 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), and cress is immune to kanga's primary coverage option of choice, earthquake. Cress also resists Kanga's preferred set-up move, power-up punch, discouraging set-up. Cress does have to watch out for flinch hax with kanga's second choice coverage option, rock slide.

Porygon2, on the other hand, must carry eviolite in order to be effective, meaning it can't abuse rocky helmet like cress can. P2 also encourages Kanga to set up on it, since it is weak to power up punch. Not to say that P2 doesn't have a place in this metagame: it IS one of the big 12 in PGL usage statistics for this format. ^_^
 
Why'd you quote me there?

But personally, I don't think we should be comparing to OU in this thread. Since what they do in OU has nothing to do with their viability in the BS meta. This is the BS Singles Viability Rankings. Some mons perform similar roles in OU and BS of course, and some are different. I don't think it benefits the discussion to point out the differences. I think everything here should be discussed relative to the BS meta.

And if someone doesn't quite grasp why something is better in BS than in OU or vice versa, then they can just read people's arguments on the mon and why the mon is good/bad in the meta. It's really that simple.
 

EnGarde

Not Dead Yet
Why'd you quote me there?

But personally, I don't think we should be comparing to OU in this thread. Since what they do in OU has nothing to do with their viability in the BS meta. This is the BS Singles Viability Rankings. Some mons perform similar roles in OU and BS of course, and some are different. I don't think it benefits the discussion to point out the differences. I think everything here should be discussed relative to the BS meta.

And if someone doesn't quite grasp why something is better in BS than in OU or vice versa, then they can just read people's arguments on the mon and why the mon is good/bad in the meta. It's really that simple.
The thing I like best about this sub-forum is the laid-back nature, where all valid questions are welcomed and answered. We have a much smaller group of regulars than larger sub-forums, and a much smaller base of readily available information, so we must be scrappier than other sub-forums, and we must be willing to leverage existing knowledge from other sub-forums in ways that the larger, most established sub-forums do not. Questions of comparing/contrasting pokemon from other metagames is a great way to leverage existing knowledge from other sub-forums for use here.
 

Feliburn

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Tyranitar for A-/A. Tyranitar is a pokemon with many viable sets, DD sweeper, special tank, bulky offense, SR Setter, the possibility of mega evolving to hit harder, etc; plus the ammount of resistances it has makes it a really powerful pokemon, the problem is its weaknesses, which prevent it from going further than A rank.
 
Tyranitar for A-/A. Tyranitar is a pokemon with many viable sets, DD sweeper, special tank, bulky offense, SR Setter, the possibility of mega evolving to hit harder, etc; plus the ammount of resistances it has makes it a really powerful pokemon, the problem is its weaknesses, which prevent it from going further than A rank.
I'd say A-. Not A though; Main reasons would be that even tho it can go mixed, it can't hit that hard with Fire blast, or ice beam. Anndddd it really can't outspeed anything without a couple of DD's up. I say A- for sure though.
 

Age of Kings

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I'm placing Pinsir in B, barring objections, because I feel that it's in the "solid, but outclassed" camp. Pinsir not only loses to many common threats in the metagame and faces stiff competition for a Mega slot, but Talonflame and Scizor are usually better first choices for the specific roles that Pinsir provides (Flying nuke and bulky Bug SD user). Taking a gander on the GBU stats, the most common set actually runs Feint to pop those Protects (imo you would be better off using SD if you predict a Protect, but what do I know). It's not a bad mon but not the best either.

Speaking of Scizor: gonna type up some justifications for it, but I'm thinking Mega somewhere in A and regular in B.
 

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