BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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On Gengarite, as everyone has said in previous posts with greater detail, it uses encore and perish song to trap you into your inevitable demise on most certainly should be suspected. As for Magnet Pull, I don't really have much to say on the matter since I've only swapped out on of the mons on my team for Registeel recently and have only been trapped by it once although I can imagine it to be very debilitating losing a pivot like Regenvest Solgaleo, Dialga, or Registeel, leaving you vulnerable to the many powerful sweepers and wallbreakers out there. My lack of encounters against it however, does not mean that it should not be looked into and should seek further opinion.
 
Yet again, I still hold the opinion their are bigger issues to address before we start discussing Gengarite (aka Primal Groudon), that should be discussed first imo. The fact that we have a mon that basically necessitates either Fur Coat Giratina or Zygarde to be used on every serious BH team (and still, Pdon has so much set versatility that it can easily circumvent the aforementioned threats) on top of it being difficult to scout due to the amount of viable variant it can run b/w its offensive sets is absolutely absurd and should not be tolerated with any longer. While I am open to the Gengarite discussion (although I dont believe its banworthy), we should talk about our red lizard friend first.
cant deny with you on that , if it isnt a fur coat mon , in most cases its not living a hit from most banded sets for pdon. I use it personally (desolate land version) and i cannot deny that if u arent fur coat (or any ability like flash fire or primordial sea) in most cases its a two shot without question. and in some cases it even ohkos on resisted hits. Gengar mega is definitely something annoying but honesyly once u see a gengar that is not megad , what else could it possibly be (save for some really wierd off the wall set). And its significantly less common in use than pdon and other notable threats.

In terms of magnet pull though it deals with the bulky steels of the meta(namely solgaleo and registeel) , in most cases they often carry u turn or parting shot to get out. However I cannot deny that in often cases mons like pdon (one none user of magnet pull) can often run max speed or just naturally be faster to outspeed them and go in for the kill. To be honest if magnet pull was being suspected I would more so ban it for the very annoying and time consuming magnet pull/color change set.
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I think I cannot be clear about Shadow Tag (Gengarite) by any means so I will proceed to talk about Magnet Pull.

I will address my thoughts, general thoughts, and opinions about suspect based on my laddering experience:

What team uses Magnet Pull?

This gen, BH team is significantly harder to build while you want to fit in at least one of each physical and special attacker, RegenVest to deal with MMY, Primal Groudon check, Magic Bounce, might as well add Imposter as a reliable backup. I don't know if this is just for me, but people are increasingly minimizing their offense cores to fit various 'mons into their team.

The "one physical and one special core" I mean mostly consist of Primal Groudon (the most metagame-defining physical attacker) accompanied by MMY, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Diancie, and others.

Special attackers paired with Primal Groudon often carry switching move such as U-turn or Volt Switch to bring in Primal Groudon. If they successfully bait Steel-type and send in Pdon, they can force another switch... or proceed to eliminate the Steel-type foe if Primal Groudon has Magnet Pull.

If the player successfully gets rid of stuff like Registeel or Solgaleo, they can severely dent or KO an opponent every time their special attacker gets to switch in afterwards. (such as how a team without Registeel will have to sacrifice someone every time Psychic Surge Choice Specs MMY switches in).

Magnet Pull user and Special Attacker can essentially tear through most archetype of teams (except some dedicated stall teams that has more than just one Steel-type as a defense core). In higher ladder, I see many forms of these cores, such as Duckymomo Senior's offensive core that only consisted of Pixilate Mega Diancie with Volt Switch and Jolly Magnet Pull Primal Groudon with Choice Band.

But I won't really say this is an issue.
To be concise, Magnet Pull discourages you from sending in Steel-types. But Shadow Tag discourages you from using Rapid Spin, Shore Up, Defog, Stealth Rock, or any moves that will not hurt or kill Gengar. Yes, Magnet Pull still restricts what you can do in general but it is not restrictive as Shadow Tag that makes you think twice before cleaning / setting hazards and using recovery on walls which is just repeated over and over throughout the match.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
honestly, im going to say suspect gengarite and magnet pull. because dispite gengarite being way worse, and magpull being situational, but the same arguments for shadow tag CAN apply to mag-pull, just to a lesser degree. if we want to ban something because it creates a "no skill" aspect of the meta, then why should magnet pull be treated any different just because it requires a certain type to work, but provides the exact same result of "wall gone, teammates can clean up ez". the reason gengarite is broken is because it can break defensive cores without any thought whatsoever right? well, last i checked, mag-pull does the exact same thing. lol.
 
would you mind explaining why this is the case? i mean like safety goggles isn't that hard to slap on a random mon. ofc regigigas can just knock it off but regigigas is a different beast entirely.
I think the phrase you're looking for is everything can knock it off, this is BH after all.
 
how do suicide leads help against smash/drum ?_? this makes no sense

would you mind explaining why this is the case? i mean like safety goggles isn't that hard to slap on a random mon. ofc regigigas can just knock it off but regigigas is a different beast entirely.
1) when they killed your SL you can simly get on with a setup stealer
2) I thought that it was obvious, but maybe it's only me noob

ShedMiddleFinga Gengar got buffed by the removal of the EV limit, as it can now fully invest in its bulk while still maintaining its great speed for fast encores, so that it can tank moves much more easily and trap, when running King's Shield, even stuff like non-band Groudon.
but
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 420-494 (129.6 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 326-386 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 392-464 (120.9 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 335-398 (103.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Power Trip (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 420-494 (129.6 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:D
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
but
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 420-494 (129.6 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 326-386 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 392-464 (120.9 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 335-398 (103.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Power Trip (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 420-494 (129.6 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:D
Gengar wouldn't switch into aforementioned opponents in the first place.

What Semako meant was that Gengar is now somewhat bulky (not really but) enough to take some hits such as Knock Off from Mega Gyarados.

Also, if you have been reading what we have been talking about Gengarite, you should know that it excels trapping passive walls such as Audino / Zygarde-C at this point.
 
but
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 420-494 (129.6 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 326-386 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 392-464 (120.9 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 335-398 (103.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Power Trip (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 420-494 (129.6 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:D
Some problems here, Hoopa-Unbound is just slower then Gengar even before mega evolving and could lock you into Swords Dance. Greninja is just very niche now that Water Bubble is gone so he doesn't have much use other than being fast and somewhat powerful. Lastly, why are you using Earthquake on Groudon? Thousand Arrows is just better, even though it still gets the OHKO it should still be mentioned.

On top of that, tell me who would stay in against Mega Mewtwo Y, an opposing Gengar, or Primal Groudon if they outspeed or you have no way of attacking them? Why don't you provide examples of walls (other than Giratina since it doesn't get trapped in the first place) that can force Mega Gengar out since that's the main issue.

EDIT: Also, many Gengars carry Spore to add further annoyance for slower mons *cough* Hoopa-Unbound *cough*
 
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Why don't you provide examples of walls (other than Giratina since it doesn't get trapped in the first place) that can force Mega Gengar out since that's the main issue.
It' s better that passive mons die
The only thing that I can think are uncommon illusions (like illusioning your Pdon) and spamming Parting shot/ U-Turn/Volt Switch/BP
over all your team. Or maybe (VERY NICHE) WoW/Night shade Chansey

Edit: They just were random thoghts
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
ok. the problem with gengarite is this: you basically can't heal or do anything else with walls unless they have bounce/prankster pivot/shedshell/are ghosts when there is gengar. in addition, every single one of these makes your team weaker to other things. magic bounce contributes absolutely nothing against offense. prankster pivoting is extremely suboptimal against balance because it gives them the slower uturn basically inviting in breakers like pdon. shed shell is vulnerable to knock off and makes your team much weaker against regigigas which is one of the most fearsome mons in the tier. ghosts carry annoying weaknesses to moongeist, knock off, and power trip, and giratina is the only good one either way. if you don't run at least one of these, your mons literally can't do anything besides click core enforcer or uturn.

now let me talk about magnet pull. i have always hated this ability because of how good steels are as blanket checks to -ate and other stuff. now you might say something like "well if they're so good then it's a good thing there's a reliable way to beat them!" that's not how it works. steels actually free up teambuilding by checking so much of the metagame even though they're nowhere near unbreakable. but if your steel is just invalidated by pdon, how are you supposed to beat ates? soundproof??? ngl soundproof is actually a pretty good ability but it rarely finds room on a team due to how pressed for ability slots most teams are nowadays. back to magnet pull. with this ability players can get a disproportionate reward for getting only one prediction right. most magnet pull setups look like this:

dumb (Diancie-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- U-turn
- Earth Power / Precipice Blades / whatever coverage
- Extreme Speed / Techno Blast

dumber (Groudon-Primal) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-Create
- Thousand Arrows
- U-turn
- Trick

look at this man. there are like 2 counters to specs mega diancie if you discount steels trapped by pdon. it's the dumbest thing ever and it takes literally 0 skill to use. as soon as the opponent's steel misses a prediction, pdon just comes in and traps it. after that diancie just wins. i don't see any reason why this should ever be allowed because of the ridiculous way it skews risk/reward. thanks
 
Gonna be completely honest right now, I think you guys should leave mag pull out of this. It is an excellent ability for chansey proofing (xerneas/dialga) and it's a great wall breaker. If you don't want your steel to die, you have 3 options,
1) run prankster
2) don't run steels
3) run something like fur coat/flash fire or whatever on steels

Yea it still hurts if you're fur coat but so what. How has this thread degenerated to, "it traps so it must be bannable." Everyone is talking about "opportunity cost" and "risk reward," well lemme break it down for you. This is how you win a pokemon battle, you have 6 mons, they have six mons. Maybe 70% of the time they have a steel. You win by having each of your mons average at better than 1-1. If you're team averages at above 1-1 it wins. AT BEST, don is averaging at 1-1 maybe 20-40% of the time because many steels are resistant to mag pull. Yes it can kill other mons but prob not too often. How the hell is .2/.4 for 1 a bannable trade. You're giving up an offensive mon slot just as much as you're opponent is giving up a defensive mon slot. It DOESN'T HAVE 0 COST TO RUN, AND IT DOESNT ALWAYS WORK. If you run a steel you run the risk of magnet pull, just as much as you run the risk of diancie having v-create. IMO it's a pretty dumb argument to complain about mag pull when it isn't even that common, and 9/10 times you're steels die it is probably to something infinity more bannable than mag pull (ahem* v-create). Given how it's almost never used, and steels NATURALLY resist it anyway, I really don't know what to say to you. This isn't gengarite, you don't have to prep your whole team for it. RNGisCancer has managed to convince me that gengarite is in general, probably a bad idea, and even though I don't have much trouble with it...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-584323384
I can see how other people could. But honestly, my favorite part about BH is making wall breakers. It is very very very hard to make good ones, and even good ones aren't infallible. So really, I can't understand why you want to ax one that is so tenuously holding on to relevance anyway. This isn't some major meta force. This isn't SHELL SMASH or BELLY DRUM yet some how we are still talking about it. Forgive me for sounding so irritated but I honestly can't understand why this is even a discussion point when we have so much more pressing things.

tl;dr Basically, if you cut out the restrained ranting, I don't think the error is in the ability, it's in the teambuilder. If you're losing to it, make a better team.
 

Duckymomo Senior

Banned deucer.
Gengarite:
Ok first off I'm just gonna say that I agree gengarite should be banned. It can take out walls even if they have u-turn by running spiky shield and disable as well as take out some offensive mons by using king's shield with an eject button registeel, giratina, etc. It plays mind games with the opponent due to illusion and basically prevents them from using normal, fighting or status moves. Prankster parting shot is in fact a good counter but it's a lot less viable overall due to the huge prankster nerf. Another option is to run shed shell on steel types but this sucks because u can't use goggles anymore and ur still vulnerable to being switcherooed something. Imo that makes this quite centralizing as gengarite forces walls to either run prankster parting shot or shed shell. I think that's enough about that as a lot of ppl already talked about this so I'll move on.
Magnet Pull:
Are u fucking kidding me rn? I feel like we're just banning stuff for the sake of banning it at this point. I mean seriously. The only viable user of magnet pull is primal groudon. I know there are some gimmicks that trap imposter but if u fall for that u should only lose your chansey and it barely ever works anyways so I'm just going to assume that people are talking about pdon when they say magnet pull is op. As RNGIsCancer said I have used scarf mega diancie and a band mag pull pdon as an offensive of core on one of my 3 main teams and while it works sometimes I can tell u that it is by no means ban worthy. I'm going to start out by saying that 30-40% of the time your opponent won't even have a steel type. When this happens your pdon just wasted its ability and that is a god damn tragedy on a versatile mon such as pdon. Pdon is pretty much useless if they don't have a steel type except for maybe tricking something a band. Another thing to take note of is that most (experienced) players will only have 1 steel type the most common being Registeel, Solgaleo, and Celesteela. This means that best case scenario u kill 1 mon with magnet pull. After u kill the steel type pdon is pretty useless so it's almost like a 1 for 1 trade. However when I used this team I noticed that about half the time pdon didn't even get the ko. Low ladder people sometimes run flash fire on steel types and once they are safely able to switch out once they will know ur mag pull and will be much more cautious. Once u start getting high ladder with this core some ppl will just use shed shell (not for mag pull mainly for gengarite cause they know it's op) This can sometimes be countered by having diancie trick them a scarf but it takes a good prediction and u lose your much needed scarf. Some of the more skillful players who I battled frequently like The Ruby Kitty, morogrim, and Quantum Tesseract used Shed shell on steel types and predicted my switcheroo which resulted in me taking an L. Another thing to be careful about is fast solgaleo which outspeed pdon and safely u-turns out. This requires pdon to use a scarf and those ohkos with karrows turn into 2hkos. I know some ppl have pointed out that once pdon removed the steel type it's gg because diancie sweeps after that. First of all that's not true for every battle because diancie gets walled by several things most notably chansey. Secondly and more importantly if diancie can get a "guaranteed sweep" after 1 steel type dies then tell me why the FUCK aren't we suspecting diancie? With this logic illusion pdon is bannable too because it disguises itself as diancie to bait out steel types and we all know that once that steel type dies diancie just wins. So instead of banning diancie that supposedly guarantees victory after steel types are dead we want to ban something that has a 50% chance to kill 1 mon because...?
Am I missing something here? Apparently all forms of trapping are op. Clearly infestation is broken because u can kill stuff with perish song sometimes. If ur so afraid of mag pull then run motherfucking Aegislash over Registeel. Btw I forgot to mention that Aegislash is still a semi viable wall that gives 0 fucks about mag pull (I'm not saying u should use Aegislash because mag pull is good). Anyway I think that about wraps it up. Ban Gengarite if u want to although I don't think it's horribly over centralizing but for fucks sake do NOT BAN MAGNET PULL! Im going to try to find some replays showing how garbage magnet pull can be sometimes.
 
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This isn't gengarite, you don't have to prep your whole team for it. RNGisCancer has managed to convince me that gengarite is in general, probably a bad idea, and even though I don't have much trouble with it...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-584323384
I can see how other people could.
Lets see. You ran encore on prankster registeel (which counters stag gar), 2 ghosts (which can't be trapped), and imposter chansey (again, cant be trapped). I think I can see why you don't have much trouble...

Lets not forget, in the replay, both of the other non-stag-proofed mons were ko'd by megagar.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I think I didn’t make myself clear on why Magnet Pull should not be discussed at all last post, and my excuse is that my device was running out of battery.
I never strongly disagreed with any suspect topics before but I will have to do so for this one.

Magnet Pull is inherently a broken ability that involves trapping!

This was never true. This is never true. This will never be true.
I don't know if discussing Gengarite has led you to think trapping itself is broken in any forms of ability, but please please please keep in mind Shadow Tag and Magnet Pull have a difference.

Shadow Tag threatens every non-Ghost types, including but not limited to Zygarde-C, Mega Audino, defensive forms of Chansey, or any other passive 'mons that do not carry Magic Bounce. But Magnet Pull merely traps a single type namely Steel. It doesn't trap anything else. It is just Steel-type. It means the ability becomes useless once you trap a Steel-type and execute it. Gengar can continue to Encore someone into Perish Song, but Magnet Pull user is now unable to do anything significant. Even Tricking someone into choice item is sometimes not successful because of the prevalence of Z-crystals. If you'd say this one-time-use ability is broken all I have left to say is "If the rest of your team is swept without that one Steel-type, I am sorry but something is wrong with your team".

Supporting Duckymomo Senior's argument, if you think forcing Steel-types to carry Shed Shell is another reason Magnet Pull is banworthy, then why were you not talking about banning Spore that globalizes the usage of Safety Goggles?

Magnet Pull is uncompetitive, it is low-risk high-reward!

If we use the wrong logic that couple of us have, OU council will go like "Wow Magnezone's Magnet Pull gets rid of Skarmory / Celesteela / Ferrothorn and leaves all competitive OU team vulnerable to Landorus-T / Kartana / Garchomp / Mega Scizor / Mega Bedrill and the ability can simply trap aforementioned walls without a cost, we must ban this".

Magnet Pull trapping is not easy as you think. You have to sacrifice a moveslot for stuff like MMY and Mega Diancie and carry U-turn or Volt Switch when it can happily run extra coverage move instead in the meta where you can have almost any choice of movepool. If you are reluctant about this, you must do a thing called double switching which can take away your momentum instantly at failure and hint your opponent that you are trying to bait something using your Magnet Pull user. Also even if you trap something, I can only imagine your face when that Registeel uses Prankster Parting Shot.

Also Magnet Pull has literally one viable user: Primal Groudon (Well yeah, I am the one who is writing that Mega Garchomp has a niche of being a Magnet Pull trapper but it is a shit, it is totally outclassed by Primal Groudon, it can't keep itself alive in front of -ates and is tortured by Core Enforcer forever). Primal Groudon has to run V-Create to successfully trap and OHKO a Steel-type. Now this is how Primal Groudon chooses an ability of Magnet Pull when it can run other abilities such as Tinted Lens / Adaptability / Stakeout. Once Magnet Pull Primal Groudon traps and KOes Steel-type, that means that the opponent knows it is Magnet Pull and they can check that Primal Groudon significantly easier than when it is equipped with other abilities. Also Primal Groudon has to risk being taken down by Prankster Destiny Bond which most of Prankster Registeel variants have to reduce their passivity to certain degree.

Without Steel my team dies to everything!

Like I said, if your entirety of defensive core heavily relies in Steel-type, something is wrong with your team. This gen you have anti-priorities (that you meanies love to pair with that friggin Shell Smash) to stop FakeSpeed, perfectly viable Soundproof users such as Slowbro or Zygarde-C to stop Boomburst, countless other viable Prankster users to check setup spams, Aegislash, or Imposter to force out any attacker that relies on its teammate to imposterproof.

How is Magnet Pull the same thing as Shadow Tag? Does it refrain you from using Defog or recovery? Or how is Magnet Pull broken? Is it because it is the way that hard-counters your so-called-defense core that consists of next to nothing added to your Solgaleo or Registeel?
If your team shrinked defense core to have more offense, you risk being more vulnerable to Magnet Pull. Just because Magnet Pull interrupts your 'ideal' teambuilding doesn't mean it is banworthy. I know we haven't been banning some stuff for a while, but please think with logic and experience. Thanks.
 

Duckymomo Senior

Banned deucer.
I honestly don't understand how magnet pull is being suspected and pdon isn't. I mean some ppl here are saying that mag pull requires no skill. Ok well then what exactly do u consider to be skillful? I think removing the primary counter to your diancie and making it easier to sweep is pretty skillful. It certainly is more skillful than just clicking shell smash and hoping they don't have prankster haze or just using a bunch of pdons. imo the the pdon and pogre are much more in need of a suspect than gengarite or magnet pull. Pretty much every good team in high ladder rn has 1 or both of those mons. I know i've already expressed my hatred of pogre (which btw perfectly walls the diancie+mag pull pdon core) but pdon is probably even worse tbh. It has the utility to take out literally any threat and still have a viable set. U know pdon is broken when 5 of them are able to beat a mono pogre team. I mean that's fucking ridiculous pogre is 4x super effective to it and resists it but it still loses. A little while back I mindlessly gained over 300 elo using a team of 5 pdons and a zygarde. People should not being to get to 1950 elo and 93% gxe by using 5 of the same mon. The only reason this is possible is because (clearly) this mon is downright op. I mean nothing can wall pdon. It has so much utility that your opponent can really never know what set it is. pdon has the most viable sets of any other mon in bh. Banded tinted lens ohkos some shit like pogre, gyarados, rayquaza, and non fur coat giratina (although most are fur coat). It can also run stakeout to ohko giratina and do massive damage to zyg as well as ohkoing p much any non flying type that switches into a precipice blades. It can run desolate land for a nice stab as well as water immunity to beat pogre and pick up some extra ohkos. It can run set up such as belly drum+unburden or shell smash+queenly majesty. U can run refridgerate+boomburst to beat giratina (except for regenvest but thats uncommon) or any zyg bar soundproof but then u could just extreme speed it. U can run a mixxed galvanize set thats improof and beats pogre and gyarados. U could run pixilate for some reason. U could run magnet pull although i wouldn't recommend it and finally u can run prankster with vcreate+copycat and destiny bond. This sheer number of sets can make pdon damn near unstoppable. Nothing in the metagame walls all of these sets and it's just too ez to win imo. For those of u still convinced that magnet pull is broken for some reason why not just ban pdon and solve 2 probalems at once? Shell smash is also ban worthy imo but I'll save that for a later post.
Here are some replays from when I was laddering featuring quintuple or mono pdon.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-582539305
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-577595119
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-577561744
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-580244378
 
Sorry if it is being a shitpost cause I didn't read all the discussion, but... Can't you just run haze?
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Sorry if it is being a shitpost cause I didn't read all the discussion, but... Can't you just run haze?
I am sorry but Haze is very irrelevant to what Duckymomo Senior has posted about his opinions about Primal Groudon. It mostly has to do with APS, and Primal Groudon rarely relies on the boost to break through walls.
He was mostly talking about its sheer power overall (thanks to access to STAB V-Create) and the stellar offensive stats that is very hard to predict; although most sets are physical wallbreaker or Magnet Pull trapper using V-Create, 150 SpAtk stat lets it check Fur Coat walls (most prominently Giratina and Zygarde-C) with Sheer Force, Refrigerate / Pixilate, and more. Especially because this is metagame where nearly any type of movepool and access to ability is allowed, it is theoretically impossible to wall Primal Groudon. I believe this is what he tried to point out.

Edit: Hey Ducky you make nice points but try to calm a little bit. Not minimoding
 

Duckymomo Senior

Banned deucer.
What do u mean by criteria of broken Pokemon? It has the highest number of viable sets in the tier and this makes literally impossible to safely wall all of its sets with a single mon. The opponent can never really guarantee what set the pdon is running until it does the damage. For example u could unknowingly send in zyg in a refrigerate pdon, pogre on a tinted lens pdon, chansey on a galvanize pdon etc so it is able to lure in common counters and destroy them. I think that answers your question let me know if I misunderstood also sorry RNG I'm just triggered that magnet pull actually might be suspected
 
Pokemon Ban:
These are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:
  • Inherent/Natural Qualities:
    • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
    • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
  • Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
    • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
    • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
  • Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
    • One of (or both):
      • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
      • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
    • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other
Here's what I mean by criteria for a Pokemon Ban.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Here's what I mean by criteria for a Pokemon Ban.
One by one:

Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
  • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards.

Primal Groudon has 180 Attack and 150 SpAtk. Then I am not going to bother saying how much of sheer unpredictability it causes. Fire / Ground typing hits literally everything neutrally thanks to Thousand Arrows that f**ks up the type chart. 100 HP and 160 Def allows it to set up stuff like Belly Drum and Shell Smash even without a sash; if you don't know how bulky that is it is the colossal bulk that lets it live 2 Facade from Adamant PH Regigigas that most offensive 'mons cannot handle. It does 'outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them'. I think we all can see why no one uses Mega Garchomp and Mega Blaziken despite their above-average offensive stats.

It is x4 weak to Water but Titned Lens / Stakeout / Galvanize always makes stuff like Pogre think twice before switching into Pdon. Also it can be nullified by Desolate Land or Water Absorb which is not a bad gimmick at all. That easily compensates the aforementioned weakness. It is also neutral to Stealth Rock unlike Mega Ray which loses a quarter switching into it.

Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
  • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more


Tinted Lens, Desolate Land, Water Absorb, Galvanize, Pixilate, Refrigerate, Stakeout, Technician, Adaptability, Contrary, Magnet Pull, even Dazzling, and more sets are viable on Primal Groudon. I always whine about Mega Rayquaza being unpredictable but this mole is even worse. I won't say much more about this because
For example u could unknowingly send in zyg in a refrigerate pdon, pogre on a tinted lens pdon, chansey on a galvanize pdon etc so it is able to lure in common counters and destroy them.
Pdon isn't mereely a V-Create powerhouse, it just can run whatever relevant it wants and blow holes on any kind of team.

Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account.
This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
    • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
  • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

50% of stuff applies to Primal Groudon. It is not necessary hard to win without it, but it now became so meta-defining wallbreaker that can break through any unprepared teams. Check and counters do exist, but it is not sufficient. Yes, since most Primal Groudon carries Choice Band V-Create,
a mon that basically necessitates either Fur Coat Giratina or Zygarde to be used on every serious BH team
above happens and they often are defeated by Special Pdon set or simply Choice Band Ice Hammer with Stakeout after some prior damage.
Primal Groudon doesn't force sets that loses to everything else, but it is true that it forces preparation to some degree.

...
Also I don't think discussion about Primal Groudon derives the topic of the discussion away, because I believe Primal Groudon itself is inherently causing 'hatred' towards Magnet Pull by being the best user of such ability while nothing else can efficiently run it.
 
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