Ladder Almost Any Ability

I think we can all agree Contrary and Impostor both need to be banned. I've already gone into why Impostor is broken (short version - boosting sweepers are pretty much rendered unviable). But let's look at the mons in Ubers who could abuse Contrary:

Dialga - spam Draco Meteor and get more and more powerful! STAB Flash Cannon means Fairies won't switch in, and it has good bulk too. Late game, very difficult to stop
Giratina-O - Doesn't have Dialga's outright power, however it has better bulk overall. Has an easier time against Lugia thanks to STAB Shadow Ball I guess
Kyurem-W - The power of this thing is just incredible. Earth Power, Focus Blast and Fusion Flare let it beat Steel types that think they can tank its STABs, and it even has reliable recovery
Lugia - Lacks power at first, but not for long. Between Psycho Boost, Aeroblast and Earth Power there isn't much it can't hit hard after a boost, and due to its great bulk it's tough to revenge kill
Lati@s - Soul Dew gives them incredible power, and with STAB Psyshock even Special walls aren't safe. Latias gets Stored Power as well, meaning even Unaware mons lose eventually
Rayquaza - Rayquaza also gets V-create and Dragon Ascent, so not only can it spam Draco Meteor like its fellow Dragons to increase its Special Attack, Dragon Ascent is now basically a 120 BP STAB Cosmic Power while V-create also buffs its Speed!
Reshiram - Also has STAB Overheat to abuse Contrary with.
Shaymin-S - Can run STAB Leaf Storm to basically be Serperior 2.0. Its higher Speed gives it a niche over its rivals
Zekrom - Zekrom is a testament to how broken Contrary is. A Physically inclined Dragon can still become a godly special sweeper, as it still gets STAB Draco Meteor but it also has Thunderbolt (so Ho-Oh's not stopping you) and Focus Blast for perfect neutral coverage.

So TL;DR - Ban Contrary
 
Imposter is now banned by AAA Ubers.

Since AAA Ubers uses more lenient banning criteria than regular OU does since it's an Ubers based tier, we'll give other potentially broken abilities (ie. Contrary, Simple) a bit more time, unless it becomes obvious that these abilities completely shape the metagame. Please post appropriate reasoning when suggesting a potential suspect. Thank you.
 
I'd like to post a useful core that I have been using. Don't know how good they may be, but they got me to finals in a tourney and have been doing well on the ladder, so yeah.

~
Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

This Alomomola set has been working wonders for me. At first, I questioned its viability and wondered if it would work, but after many battles with it, I can say that this is a viable set. While there may be better Fur Coat mons out there (ie. Lugia, Giratina (maybe), etc.) Alomomola works well with the ability because of the role it plays on teams, which is Wish passing. Fur Coat allows it to take a lot of hits, which allows it to safely setup a wish and either switch out into another Pokemon, or stay in and use Protect to gain back some HP.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Fur Coat Alomomola: 152-179 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (I would probably switch into an Unaware 'mon here anyway, I haven't seen how much damage Adaptability does, but I've seen most Arceus Normals run Protean.)

252 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Fur Coat Alomomola: 126-150 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- 11.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is Refrigerate Kyurem-B)

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Fur Coat Alomomola: 207-244 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Fur Coat Alomomola: 153-180 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Fur Coat Alomomola: 135-160 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 92% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is Protean Hoopa-U, which is what I have been running into, not sure how much Adaptability does).

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Fur Coat Alomomola: 214-253 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (+2 is a 2HKO, again, I would go into an Unaware 'mon).

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce / Volt Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Defog

Lugia and Alomomola are a really good pair. Alomomola is weak to Grass, which is what Lugia resists. Alomomola also requires a lot of hazard support as it can get worn down easily, and Lugia provides good hazard support. Lugia is weak to Ice, which Alomomola resists, and its also weak to Rock, which Alomomola semi-handles. The two do, however, share a common weakness to Electric, which is why Volt Absorb is an option it can use. Lugia's set is mainly to catch the opponent off guard and bounce back any hazards, Taunts, status, and Roars/Whirlwinds. Lugia does, however, lose to Mold Breaker, and Adaptability boosted Ice Beams from Kyurem-W will do heaps of damage easily. However, the core does what it needs to do, which is to create a defensive core for that team that can handle hazards, Wish pass, stall out with Toxic, and tank hits.

I've also been considering giving Lugia Unaware instead of Magic Bounce, so that way it can Whirlwind/Roar out any setup sweepers without taking too much damage while doing so.

I've been messing around with the EV spreads, so I apologize if they aren't the best ones (especially on Alomomola, I just used the EV spread that it uses in OU, which might not be the best idea, but again this meta has only been on the server for a day, so).

I'll post some calcs later for Lugia as I have to go.
 
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Idk if this question is considered redundant or looked down upon, but can we have this format permanently. It is really fun and requires some creative thinking skills. It also relaxes me and satisfies my boredom. It is nice to see what players can come up with in this format, especially in the lower ladder. I am currently 2-13 on an alt lol.
 
Ok Simple is ridiculous. Everyone really needs to run Unaware as very few things can stop a +4 Ekiller Arceus or a +4/+4/+4 Xerneas. Same goes for Soul Dew Latias sweeping with Stored Power after just two Calm Minds. It basically forces everyone to run Unaware, basically limiting the amount of possibilities this metagame has. I think it needs to be banned to make the metagame better, or else the metagame will stay stale as everyone and their mother will carry unaware just for Simple.

In short, to make the metagame not stale, ban Simple pls.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Another thought, Illusion is super uncompetitive. It has all the problems it has in normal AAA (Where its banned), and Ubers just exacerbates them with things like Mega Gengar. Shadow Tag is another thing banned in AAA, but with MGar, you can illusion trap.... doubling the uncompetitiveness. Also can be devastating with things like both the Mewtwo's, any Choiced user, and GeoXern/E-Killer

I feel its redundant to say all the other reason Illusion is banned as they are already in this thread.
 
I haven't found Simple or Contrary to be much of a problem, with the exception of Contrary Rayquaza, which has all the coverage it needs in Contrary-able moves to break physical and special attackers of basically any type, to the point that I don't think there's any single Pokemon that can act as a stable Unaware check to it, because it has such impressive firepower base on both ends of the spectrum with good (enough) coverage, all while bolstering its own defenses, making even priority-based checks dubious at best. (And Refigerate Extreme Speed isn't half as appealing as it is in Balanced Hackmons, for example)

Other Contrary Pokemon are very one-dimensional, however, and usually a bit underwhelming. Unaware tends to make them into a joke, and isn't even necessary to readily defeat them.

Simple hasn't really stood out to me as a problem. Simple Xerneas is appealing, but not that great, to the point that I've actually switched it over to a different Ability entirely -in the end, Simple gives it 50% more Special Attack than non-Simple, a better Speed tier but honestly it outspeeds basically everything at +2 anyway, and it takes 1/3rd less damage from Special attacks than non-Simple, which is... nice? But it's not like Xerneas needs more Special bulk than what it already gets out of Power Herb Geomancy. Simple E-killer Arceus is easily stopped by Unaware, and even without Unaware per se, +50% damage over non-Simple isn't actually that amazing. It crosses critical thresholds that make it worth considering, of course, but for instance Guts will have more damage before boosting and the same damage after boosting, ignoring for a moment that presumably Simple will have a Silk Scarf or something. Honestly, the primary reason to run Simple E-Killer Arceus is because it's the least costly/risky way of making it a better E-killer -but that doesn't mean it's an overwhelming threat.

Simple Soul Dew Latias is hard-stopped by Unaware Yveltal, which... honestly is one of your best Unaware users anyway.

Mostly though I think Contrary Rayquaza may require a looking into. Otherwise the meta has seemed... surprisingly balanced so far. A little BH-lite-y, but overall fairly functional.
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
Actually I too think simple should be banned, I mean most of the simple mons like lati or xern can be Eved to be defensive anyways, plus having to run unaware mons is ridiculous, or getting swept by lati or xern(stored power even allows lati to break through most stuff anyways, only counter being unaware yveltal, lol).
This isn't BH, where you can just prankster topsy turvy anything, so simple should be banned imo.
 
Regigigas @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge/Iron Head/Zen Headbutt

So, i was playing around with Regigigas for a bit and this set is definitely much more powerful than i gave it credit for. Choice Band along with adaptability deals massive damage to anything and legit has a chance to ohko threats after rocks.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 290-342 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 332-392 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 200-236 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Primal Kyogre: 302-356 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Still can't touch fur coat groudon but fc don is a beast of it's own power. Giratina is also untouched except being knocked off for 45-50%.
Earthquake and knock off in conjunction provide utility and great damage with prediction, Last slot is pretty flexible edge kills birds, iron head if you hate fairies, zen headbutt lol it checks the fighting types and poison types they are op.

Not being able to touch fur coat users hurts it in the long run but still pretty cool to see regi playing and killing some big boys up there.
 
Actually I too think simple should be banned, I mean most of the simple mons like lati or xern can be Eved to be defensive anyways, plus having to run unaware mons is ridiculous, or getting swept by lati or xern(stored power even allows lati to break through most stuff anyways, only counter being unaware yveltal, lol).
This isn't BH, where you can just prankster topsy turvy anything, so simple should be banned imo.
The only popular Simple abuser that isn't easily destroyed by all the Extreme Speed running around everywhere is Arceus. Offensive teams don't need to run Unaware at all (Just need checks to Simple Arceus), and stall and balance really ought to have Unaware regardless, just because it's so good at checking setup Pokemon of any kind.

Regigigas @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge/Iron Head/Zen Headbutt

So, i was playing around with Regigigas for a bit and this set is definitely much more powerful than i gave it credit for. Choice Band along with adaptability deals massive damage to anything and legit has a chance to ohko threats after rocks.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 290-342 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 332-392 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 200-236 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Primal Kyogre: 302-356 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Still can't touch fur coat groudon but fc don is a beast of it's own power. Giratina is also untouched except being knocked off for 45-50%.
Earthquake and knock off in conjunction provide utility and great damage with prediction, Last slot is pretty flexible edge kills birds, iron head if you hate fairies, zen headbutt lol it checks the fighting types and poison types they are op.

Not being able to touch fur coat users hurts it in the long run but still pretty cool to see regi playing and killing some big boys up there.
Run Tough Claws. It's only slightly weaker for Return (You'll never notice the difference) and boosts all your non-Earthquake/Stone Edge coverage.

You might also consider replacing Return with Crush Grip. That Arceus calc becomes

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Regigigas Crush Grip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 421-496 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

a OHKO without any need for Stealth Rock, for example.

Worse performance against anything you can't OHKO, admittedly, but it's worth considering, especially if you're confident in your predicts.
 
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Disagree on Crush Grip, it's stronger at full HP but Return is more consistent. I've used a similar set with Guts and Toxic Orb with Facade in place of Return - hits incredibly hard, and Guts bypasses Unaware which is nice. Is Reshiram any good in this meta? Adaptability and Desolate Land seem like good abilities for it.
 
Disagree on Crush Grip, it's stronger at full HP but Return is more consistent. I've used a similar set with Guts and Toxic Orb with Facade in place of Return - hits incredibly hard, and Guts bypasses Unaware which is nice. Is Reshiram any good in this meta? Adaptability and Desolate Land seem like good abilities for it.
Contrary is Reshiram's favored Ability. Overheat+Draco Meteor covers a lot of the meta fairly reliably. I usually see it Scarfed.

Yeah, Guts+Facade Regigigas is pretty amazing, though I'm not sure why you wouldn't run a Flame Orb instead.
 
I used it as a hit and run wallbreaker, and in those occasions you're better off with the Toxic Orb as that does less damage over 3 turns. If you want it to stay in and sweep, Flame Orb is better.
 
My bad, but my point still stands. I wonder in physical Xerneas would be any good? Pixilate Return hits pretty hard, and it has coverage in Close Combat and Rock Slide. It can't touch Primal Groudon, but that's what your other 5 teammates are for.
 

FINITOOOO

lolgroudon
Not gonna lie this meta is pretty fun so far!

I've seen some big threats so far: Poison Heal and Simple Arceus, Fur Coat Groudon and Giratina, Unaware Lugia with Psych Up (and some times Calm Mind), Contrary Rayquaza(watch out for this one), Contrary Reshiram, Sheer Force and Adaptability Zekrom (hits like a truck, draco does huge damage to pdon!), and OML protean is soooooo good. It's really good on Deo-A and Mewtwo. I've also seen contrary Deo-A which is just disgusting. as well as No Guard Deo-A which is pretty chill.
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
So, ok after 3 hours of laddering, tbh this is a pretty good meta though, specially with abilities like contrary and stuff not banned, offense just dominates lol.
So, my first few thoughts on the meta were that mons like kyurem white and stuff would be OP but surprisingly, priorities have been the flavour of the meta.
I have been having so much fun with banded gale wings rayquaza as a wallbreaker(Yeah no aerialate espeed ; sue me -_-), it hits little harder than banded espeed, notably KOing, kyurem white and some other stuff like revenging xern after rocks. Magic Guard Ho-oh also works pretty well against stall. Also mold breaker arceus is best lol, fuck you unaware and fur coat. Btw, fur coat yveltal is such an awesome check to pretty much all the physical attackers, it once checked a life orb aerialate ray, adaptability arceus and +1 pdon in the same match while being at 75% in the end ;).
Anyways, pretty cool meta and I am relieved though because I thought this would get out of hands with simple and stuff being legal.
 
Contrary is now suspect by AAA Ubers.

Since this would be a pretty early time to start up a council, we're going to run this suspect mostly like STABmons does it - we'll give everyone a 3 day suspect period to post their thoughts on Contrary and why it should or should not be banned, and then TI and I will make a decision based on the community's input and the arguments put forth.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Based on what I saw, Contrary (and Simple even more so, but thats for another time) is VERY centralising, contricting and outright bonkers. Believe me when I say this ability forces a kind of not bulky offence, but not vanilla offence playstyle as most teams run - Contrary Mon/Simple Mon/Contrary Mon/Unaware/Protean abuser/Filler. Most Unaware mons are extremely momentum draining for offence, and even then some clutch ways of breaking past them are being Discovered (eg - Contrary Latios + Stored Power). Most likely the only true Contrary counter is Unaware Lugia, who resists Stored Power and thanks to massive bulk, can stomach Dracos from Soul Dew Latios and Roost off damage. Another annoying fact is that unlike other metas, example BH, AAA doesn't have ANY other means of taking on Contrary (and Simple) abusers, unless one thinks Prankster Malamar and Manaphy are viable in any way. A strategy I saw was Scarf Reshiram + another Contrary Dragon, with Scarf Reshiram dealing with Dragon immunities and such with its Overheat, and then allows its partner to clean unopposed. It just makes gameplay rather boring and extremely contricted, so much so that many opponents who overprepare for some threats just crumple to underutilized threats. (My favourite being Specs Chlorophyll Hoopa-U. Fuck you Primaldon!!) So as you can see, Contrary (and Simple) is just broken, and if this is me saying this about it, you know its bad.

My concencus: BAN CONTRARY and Simple too plz!!!
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
Based on what I saw, Contrary (and Simple even more so, but thats for another time) is VERY centralising, contricting and outright bonkers. Believe me when I say this ability forces a kind of not bulky offence, but not vanilla offence playstyle as most teams run - Contrary Mon/Simple Mon/Contrary Mon/Unaware/Protean abuser/Filler. Most Unaware mons are extremely momentum draining for offence, and even then some clutch ways of breaking past them are being Discovered (eg - Contrary Latios + Stored Power). Most likely the only true Contrary counter is Unaware Lugia, who resists Stored Power and thanks to massive bulk, can stomach Dracos from Soul Dew Latios and Roost off damage. Another annoying fact is that unlike other metas, example BH, AAA doesn't have ANY other means of taking on Contrary (and Simple) abusers, unless one thinks Prankster Malamar and Manaphy are viable in any way. A strategy I saw was Scarf Reshiram + another Contrary Dragon, with Scarf Reshiram dealing with Dragon immunities and such with its Overheat, and then allows its partner to clean unopposed. It just makes gameplay rather boring and extremely contricted, so much so that many opponents who overprepare for some threats just crumple to underutilized threats. (My favourite being Specs Chlorophyll Hoopa-U. Fuck you Primaldon!!) So as you can see, Contrary (and Simple) is just broken, and if this is me saying this about it, you know its bad.

My concencus: BAN CONTRARY and Simple too plz!!!
Actually contrary though very dangerous, but I don't think its broken with the amount of priority users in the tier, most most are revenged by offense and obviously there are unaware mons in stall.Same thing with simple, Only sweepers which offense are contrary sash deoxys and to some extent contrary ray due to its coverage. As far as draco spamming is considered scarfed reshiram and stuff are revenged lol, with dialga only being nuisance. I mean I have been playing with team with no unaware mons, and it hasn't bothered me at all and more so this is Ubers lol, so there should be some OP abilities. Anyways that's my opinion though, but without contrary and stuff stall will become rampant and contrary forces the stall player to run to its unaware mon which can further be taken adavantage of by some strong wallbreaker or magic bounce user.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Thats not true at all. Offence has assloads of abilities to take adavantage of once those two are gone. Adaptability, Protean, Tinted Lens, Various -Ates and Mold Breaker.

Also, Simple mons arent easily revengekilled as the two most common abusers of Simple either have STAB priority of their own, and in Xerneas's case, invest in enough bulk to survive and beat common revengekillers.

So stall being unbreakable with the absence of Simple or Contrary is false.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Stall deals with both simple and contrary quite easily with unaware unless the user is zekrom, reshiram, or another mold breaker user. Both Zekrom and Reshiram use Contrary, not Simple, and don't set up. Same with the Kyube formes. Basically, Stall quite easily handles these mons by just running unaware lugia or spdef unaware yveltal (although physdef is a better set). Where the playstyle problem would come in is balance, but priority spam and the immense offensive pressure even balanced teams constantly exert makes things like Contrary Rayquaza completely manageable. The setup opportunities for it aren't much better than that of something like Xerneas just because things are so powerful that even after a V-create boost, Rayquaza still is taking a lot of damage from common foes. The few things that it can really set up on, like Primal Don, usually carry a move for it by default, such as Twave/roar on defensive don and stone edge/dragon claw on offensive. Furthermore, Fur Coat really invalidates many physical attackers.

I honestly don't think simple/contrary bans would make a single difference for offense's matchup with stall in the tier, in fact I don't think it would affect matchup at all. The effect that people don't really analyze/acknowledge is the change to teambuilding for the affected playstyle. If Simple and Contrary were easily splashable balance smashers and they were banned, there would be a restriction on teambuilding for offense, and that would make stallbreakers harder to fit on teams, thus making stall better. Contrary and Simple are NOT splashable, irreplaceable mons on offense; there are plenty of good balance breakers out there. I'm not worried about either.

Quite frankly, I don't think Contrary or Simple are broken at all. Simple has very few good users, the most dangerous of which really being Ekiller as Xern is generally pretty easy to handle and very dangerous without simple (simple doesn't change much for it, somebody else discussed this already), and again, Ekiller has better sets such as PH, Illusion, and the rare Protean. Contrary has decent abusers but the power level is so high that even after boosts it's hard not to be able to kill them. Rayquaza has to get a v-create off or else it's revenge'd by like anything, while other mons that can't go mixed just aren't that threatening to any unaware wall and are still destroyed by priority (Rayq is the only one that can boost defenses and speed). I honestly don't see these elements as broken like I first thought. yes The Immortal I admit I was wrong. Thanks for giving them a chance.
 
My problem with Simple and Contrary is actually not because if they're gone, stall become rampant (it won't). My problem is, to not get 6-0ed by Contrary Ray/Simple Ekiller, offense teams have to make a slot for Unaware, which usually doesn't fit offense. In other words, even though Simple and Contrary are wallable, they are both near-unrevengable unless you carry something like Sash Magic Guard Deo A. I think that is a really big problem for offense and I want both to be banned.

I think without Simple and Contrary, Offense will have an easier time to teambuild because they're not required to have Unaware in every team just to not get 6-0ed by random Simple/Contrary sweepers. No, actually ALL playstyle will benefit from Simple and Contrary being gone because all playstyles doesn't require Unaware for Ray. It's just so restricting it's ridiculous.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
My problem with Simple and Contrary is actually not because if they're gone, stall become rampant (it won't). My problem is, to not get 6-0ed by Contrary Ray/Simple Ekiller, offense teams have to make a slot for Unaware, which usually doesn't fit offense. In other words, even though Simple and Contrary are wallable, they are both near-unrevengable unless you carry something like Sash Magic Guard Deo A. I think that is a really big problem for offense and I want both to be banned.

I think without Simple and Contrary, Offense will have an easier time to teambuild because they're not required to have Unaware in every team just to not get 6-0ed by random Simple/Contrary sweepers. No, actually ALL playstyle will benefit from Simple and Contrary being gone because all playstyles doesn't require Unaware for Ray. It's just so restricting it's ridiculous.
I honestly think the restriction on offense is a good thing; it makes teambuilding much more difficult. Again, revenging them isn't as hard as sash guard Deo when most of them can't boost speed. Rayquaza falls to any refrigerate espeed abuser, or anything with strong ice type moves, etc. And hell, like I said, it's hard for Ray to even get off a V-create because of it's lack of bulk and how powerful everything is. Having to teambuild around these threats is probably doing some job keeping the meta more balanced than it would be if offense could just do whatever the hell it wanted at zero opportunity cost.
 

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