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A Forgotten Threat - Ho-oh Discussion
- Thread starter Jibaku
- Start date
The main reason for that is Brave Bird. With its 2 very strong STABs, (Sacred Fire and Brave Bird) almost no uber can switch in saftly. The best check is Heatran, but it is walled by sub-Ho-oh and will lose in the long run.
The other reason for rank 13 is that Ho-oh is a new physical thread. In the past it were only Groudon and Rayquaza, (maybe Scizor too, but its more a "check" pokemon than an own thread.) Now Palkia and Kyogre, especially Palkia are facing themselves with some more troubles. Kyogre speed ties with Ho-oh and is forced to use Surf because of BB massive power. Palkia outspeeds Ho-oh , but Ho-oh has a good chance to stall out Spacial Rend. (60 % for no crit).
How is Heatran the best check when it is beaten in the long run?
Plus some Ho-Oh Run Earthquake which annihilates Heatran...
Heatran can't do much to Ho-oh (earth power doesn't effect it, fire blast does little damage, same with hp ice). The only way to take it out is via Explosion (this can also be circumvented if Ho-oh has Substitute). Ho-oh can also just drill Heatran with Earthquake. I'd say there are much better checks than Heatran. Possibilities include Kyogre and Palkia (with Choice Scarf), or faster Groudon who have Stone Edge.
Giratina-o is not the only uber with Stone Edge, it does not even outspeed Ho-oh. Mewtwo, Garchomp, Mew, Palkia and Rayquaza have all Stone Edge and they all are faster than Ho-oh.
The huge rock-weakness is mentioned in Jibakus post. To eliminate Ho-oh, Stone edge makes sence on any other pokemon with spe >89.
ho-oh rarely runs max speed my friend
anyway ho-oh teams are all very similar to eachother, I've stared calling it ho-ohffense. they're all something like this: forry / groudon / giratina - o / ho - oh / scarf dialga / latias, with some variation.
It's weird that you mention that - just today I was using Choice Scarf Hidden Power Rock Heatran. I had a free moveslot, so it makes a decent check (OHKOes 252 HP / 0 SDef Ho-oh after Stealth Rock). Hidden Power Rock is useful to finish low HP Rayquaza etc off too - often it looks like Hidden Power Ice which is inviting for Roost Ho-oh.
Heatran is excellent because STAB Drought-boosted Fire Blast/Flamethrower puts a dent in tons of things (especially if you run a Pursuit user too), and its resistances allow it to come in on many general attacking moves and get a free hit, so it fits on my team well anyway (checking stuff like Darkrai).
Heatran is excellent because STAB Drought-boosted Fire Blast/Flamethrower puts a dent in tons of things (especially if you run a Pursuit user too), and its resistances allow it to come in on many general attacking moves and get a free hit, so it fits on my team well anyway (checking stuff like Darkrai).
I think we are forgetting Sacred Fire's 50% burn rate. You can force a switch, but you can't switch Giratina-O, Groudon, Garchomp, etc in without risking crippling them for the remainder of the match.
It is why Ho-oh is best off revenge killed, rather than direct counter, although Brave bird makes ho-oh hit like a truck anyways.
Brave Bird has pushed Ho-oh into a realm of Ubers who don't have counters, only checks. We can see this in a lot of Pokémon, like Rayquaza, Palkia, Darkrai (Primeape is fine, but sort of specialized), Mewtwo (Selfdestruct puts Blissey on edge), and many many more. This is not an uncommon occurance in the tier.
As true as this may be, is it all that major? many common revenge killers in Ubers (kyogre, palkia, etc.) can take care of most ho oh fairly easily, assuming they're not behind a sub. I think that the most important thing to remember when you're facing ho oh is to force it to attack, by constantly attacking it yourself. that way, it can't set up a sub, and you can revenge kill it much more easily.
I agree, though, that with brave bird ho oh has become very hard to deal with.
I've been using Tyranitar as a good check. I guess a Brave Bird + Earthquake would kill it, but it's not OHKOed, and it takes away the weather advantage. Sandstorm damage can really make a difference when it's already taking Life Orb and Brave Bird recoil, and Ho-oh no longer can abuse those sun-boosted Sacred Fires. Another decent check is Dialga, who isn't OHKOed by anything and with the right moveset it can OHKO back.
If Ho-Oh is behind a sub (It usually is unless you go and break it), both are very likely to lose. Tyranitar risks getting burnt by Sacred Fire and Dialga also risks getting burnt, and it can't OHKO Ho-Oh with a Special Attack if Ho-Oh is close to full health due to Ho-Oh's sexy Special Defense.
I don't mean to intrude too much on the main discussion, but wouldn't an 80% accurate move with 8 PP be less than ideal against a Pokemon with Pressure that is quite likely to run Sub, and have the ability to recover behind those Subs at any opportunity? This is also ignoring the obvious burn risk that comes with Ho-oh as standard.
The lead loses to the occasional Kyogre lead, but those are becoming rarer, at least in my experience. The best thing about it is that it doesn't need to worry about Stealth Rock at all. I would suggest using EQ though, for those Dialga leads, since it should mostly be focused about doing as much damage as possible before it goes down. I'd replace Roost, since Substitute is necessary for beating Darkrai. However, a smart Darkrai user might use Trick as you Substitute, forcing you out and possibly gaining the momentum.
How does this set look (Haven't tested):
Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP/252 Atk/64 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Can come into special attackers not named Kyogre. Ho-oh has nice bulk, and can switch into Darkrai and possibly get a kill if Sleep Talk doesn't pick Rest.
Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP/252 Atk/64 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Can come into special attackers not named Kyogre. Ho-oh has nice bulk, and can switch into Darkrai and possibly get a kill if Sleep Talk doesn't pick Rest.
While it does have extreme power, I personally find it inferior to Sub / Roost / Sacred Fire / BB + Life Orb. The coverage provided by Ho-oh's stabs alone is excellent, and it means that pokemon that resist one will probably not enjoy taking a hit from the other - Choice Band removes that ability to switch moves and means that something can come in on a resisted choice attack and set up. Never a good scenario.