Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Alright, let's talk about something that I'm seeing a complete lack of in 1v1: PLAYS
I always get so triggered about seeing people lose won battles because they don't know how they've won, or they're using a plain inferior set to an ideal one, so I decided to make a decently comprehensive post to analyze the most common situations and how we can go about winning them more efficiently, as well as being overall better when it comes to teambuilding.
Please bear in mind that I will be avoiding the psychological aspect of the game to the best of my ability, since those types of situations typically wind down to random chance once you've gotten past the first few battles with an opponent.

Setup:
+1
There are dozens of mons that rely on boosting their stats/taking advantage of a turn to gain an advantage for later turns. Though a notion that people don't realize is that there are several situations where you don't need to set up.
The main culprit of wasteful setup are mons who set up to get +1 to either offensive stat, namely, Gyarados-Mega and Charizard-X, though there are plenty others that apply as well, these two are the most common. Typically, setting up with DD is how you handle most mons who you think could possibly withstand an attack, which is a fair thought, but the problem is that Dragon Dance only provides +1 to the Attack stat, which is basically the equivalent of having a Choice Band or just ordinary STAB if you're using a non-STAB move. The only fair reason you'd ever want to use DD is if you need to outspeed a threat and THEN proceed to OHKO them, otherwise, you're better off just attacking twice, since two attacks = double damage in 2 turns while setting up DD and attacking = 1.5x damage in 2 turns. Not to mention, the more times you attack the opponent, the more likely you are to get added effects or crits, which provides greater incentive to attack multiple times instead of setting up a lesser number of more powerful attacks.

+2
+2 setup is a different case, since it becomes the same as attacking twice without setting up, though results can vary depending on the circumstance, such as using Swords Dance after being hit by Intimidate, which is more powerful than just hitting twice, despite the loss of having increased chances of secondary effects/crits.
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 225-265 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 502-592 (151.6 - 178.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
At the same time, however, the further you boost your stats, the less effective the boosts become, which is most noticeable with +2 boosts.
0--> +2 = 2x
+2--> +4 = 3x = 1.5x(2x) Choice Band equivalent
+4--> +6 = 4x = 1.33x(3x) Adaptability equivalent
With this in mind, in situations where your opponent is boosting their bulk while you're boosting your power, it's typically best to actively calculate how much damage an attack would do if you were to attack without setting up completely while they continued boosting, and vice versa for you being the one boosting bulk. The same science can be applied to +1 boosts, but like I said, the difference is much more noticeable with +2 boosts.

Builds/Spreads
Overbuilding
Overbuilding is when you give a mon more of a stat than the minimum that it needs, and/or moves of higher power than what it needs. Common examples of overbuilding are: running max speed on something that's already faster than what it needs to outspeed, running max atk/spa on something that already lands a lot of OHKO's without the excess power, running max bulk when you already withstand all the hits you need to, and everything in between.

We need to keep in mind that 1v1 isn't a team-oriented meta/tier, so you don't need to worry about switching into attacks and the like, you only need to worry about individual mons, which means that most bulky mons can afford to run less bulk, and powerful mons can afford to run less power, and so on/so forth. Typically, it's best to experiment around with the damage calc to find suitable ev spreads that fit the needs of your team.

Overbuilding with moves is a bit simpler of a problem, since there are only but so many potential viable move combinations. Typically, you're overbuilding with moves if you're running moves more powerful than you need them to be. With that said, there aren't really very many circumstances where running less powerful moves would be more beneficial than the riskier high-power options, other than things like avoiding high chances of moves failing (Thunderbolt>Thunder, Ice Beam>Blizzard, etc). These kinds of things can fall in line with how many evs you have in your corresponding offensive stat.

Underbuilding
Underbuilding is the opposite of Overbuilding, where you aren't using a mon to its potential viability. Underbuilding is commonly the result of Overbuilding, since you'll have so many evs placed into one stat that your other stats won't benefit anywhere near as much as they could, if at all. Underbuilding can also result from the use of moves that don't have much of an overall effective use to the user, though the worth of a move ultimately depends upon the current context of when you're building a team and for what purpose you're building it.

You can't handle everything in one set regardless of how hard you try, the only things that even come close to that are those who rely on hax to win, so it's best not to worry about things that your mon could beat as opposed to things it already does beat, since you'll always have two partners to make up for it.

Just so I'm clear on move Underbuilding, it's a concept that pertains to what relevance a move has within the 1v1 metagame. A great example is Ice type coverage; typically, it's one of the most helpful types you can have for offensive purposes, but in 1v1, there aren't very many threats that are weak to Ice that you can't just take out with a STAB attack. And on the other hand, Air Slash on Charizard-Y is also useless, unless you're the kind of sadist who knows it's only good for hax and still uses it anyways.

Concluding notes:
Just like how things are with everything in 1v1, you have to perceive everything twice, the first time being in regards to overall viability, which is how we make the vr and other official smogon-y stuff, and the second time being in regards to what people are using on the ladder or in tournaments right now, since there will always be people who don't know about these things or purposefully choose to ignore them.
Because of this, there may be times when it's better to run Stone Edge over Rock Slide because of a Charizard-X who bulked themselves to take a Kyurem Outrage, or HP Fire on a Porygon-Z because Genesect is pissing you off, or Heatran/Conkeldurr on your team because everyone's using mostly the big S rank mons right now.


Thank you all for reading and I hope you have a wonderful day/night/afternoon ^-^
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
[18:19] Glyx✧☆:ok if I win this tour I'm submitting the team

Congratulations to Glyx✧☆ for winning the [Gen 7] 1v1 Double Elimination Tournament!

I'm a woman of my word dammit-

I present you all with: The Anti-Everything Team!

The Conk Donker:
conkeldurr.gif

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist / Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 204 Atk / 52 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hammer Arm / Drain Punch / Mach Punch
- Filler

So basically, this guy's role is to be a counter for zard/kyub/gyara/koko/pz/aegi/and many more.
With all that spdef and an assault vest, it tanks Blast Burns and Gigavolt Havocs pretty well, as well as other special hits, and promptly 1/2hko's everything it needs to. Keep in mind, if you wanna be a legit counter to Gyarados, you're gonna need Thunder Punch. The 204+ Attack stat is particularly to make sure that it can 3HKO Gyarados with Thunder Punch and Mach Punch in case it's a bulky spread and mega evolves turn 1, in case you have no alternative fighting STAB. The minimum speed is to guaranteed underspeed Aegislash and ohko with Earthquake when it attacks. The 52 Defense is what's leftover after building to handle everything it needs to, you can do with these as you please, though I find that they help for taking attacks from Gyarados.

The melting pile of magma and steel that's somehow light enough to be lifted by a balloon:
heatran.gif

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 204 Def / 232 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Filler
- Filler

Heatran's always been a top choice among anti-meta mons, though this is a bit of a different approach in terms of EVs, the typical spread being one that's crept to outspeed Charizard after Rock Tomb, or other mons of similar speed tiers. This Heatran, however, focuses more on beating what it needs to, since, realistically, nobody runs Earthquake or Focus Blast Charizard. It has the minimum necessary SpA to guaranteed 1hko max hp Aegi while being speed crept to outspeed max speed Crustle. It doesn't really have many options for Fillers though, mostly circulating between Ancientpower for the zards, Taunt for stall, and WoW for breaking physical mons as well as Sturdy. Technically, it only needs 176 Def evs to tank a max atk Hammer Arm from Metagross, but it definitely appreciates having the extra remaining evs as well, since its typing alone will determine whether it wins any matchups against special attackers or not.

I'm good I swear ;-;:
tapufini.gif

Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 216 SpA / 20 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Moonblast
- Filler

While Primarina and Fini have type, moveset, and niche in common, the two are set apart mostly by the things they counter, which is determined mostly by their bulkiness, Primarina needing a lot more bulk to take on the heavy hitters like Kyurem, Pinsir, Porygon-Z, Aegislash, and more, while Tapu Fini can take them all on more or less with just max hp alone. The most noteworthy feature here is Hidden Power Rock, which serves the main purpose of taking out Charizard-Y and Pinsir. The pinch of Defense and Special Defense are there mostly for the purpose of cementing your odds against certain attacks (Porygon-Z's Hyper Beam and Mawile's Play Rough + Sucker combo).

gifs didn't feel like cooperating with me, so no fancy gifs :(
Edit: ok nvm, NOW they decide to work

The team takes on just about everything common that people use in 1v1, the only things in the upper ranks that beat it being the awkward Deo-D, Meloetta, and physical Tapu Koko? Specially defensive Slowbro.

And, yes, you can copy and paste these sets into teambuilder and it'll work, though you will need to finish the mons yourself, since I'm not just gonna build a whole team for you :L
 
[18:19] Glyx✧☆:ok if I win this tour I'm submitting the team

Congratulations to Glyx✧☆ for winning the [Gen 7] 1v1 Double Elimination Tournament!

I'm a woman of my word dammit-

I present you all with: The Anti-Everything Team!

The Conk Donker:
View attachment 81365
Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist / Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 204 Atk / 52 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hammer Arm / Drain Punch / Mach Punch
- Filler

So basically, this guy's role is to be a counter for zard/kyub/gyara/koko/pz/aegi/and many more.
With all that spdef and an assault vest, it tanks Blast Burns and Gigavolt Havocs pretty well, as well as other special hits, and promptly 1/2hko's everything it needs to. Keep in mind, if you wanna be a legit counter to Gyarados, you're gonna need Thunder Punch. The 204+ Attack stat is particularly to make sure that it can 3HKO Gyarados with Thunder Punch and Mach Punch in case it's a bulky spread and mega evolves turn 1, in case you have no alternative fighting STAB. The minimum speed is to guaranteed underspeed Aegislash and ohko with Earthquake when it attacks. The 52 Defense is what's leftover after building to handle everything it needs to, you can do with these as you please, though I find that they help for taking attacks from Gyarados.

The melting pile of magma and steel that's somehow light enough to be lifted by a balloon:
View attachment 81367
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 204 Def / 232 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Filler
- Filler

Heatran's always been a top choice among anti-meta mons, though this is a bit of a different approach in terms of EVs, the typical spread being one that's crept to outspeed Charizard after Rock Tomb, or other mons of similar speed tiers. This Heatran, however, focuses more on beating what it needs to, since, realistically, nobody runs Earthquake or Focus Blast Charizard. It has the minimum necessary SpA to guaranteed 1hko max hp Aegi while being speed crept to outspeed max speed Crustle. It doesn't really have many options for Fillers though, mostly circulating between Ancientpower for the zards, Taunt for stall, and WoW for breaking physical mons as well as Sturdy. Technically, it only needs 176 Def evs to tank a max atk Hammer Arm from Metagross, but it definitely appreciates having the extra remaining evs as well, since its typing alone will determine whether it wins any matchups against special attackers or not.

I'm good I swear ;-;:
View attachment 81372
Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 216 SpA / 20 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Moonblast
- Filler

While Primarina and Fini have type, moveset, and niche in common, the two are set apart mostly by the things they counter, which is determined mostly by their bulkiness, Primarina needing a lot more bulk to take on the heavy hitters like Kyurem, Pinsir, Porygon-Z, Aegislash, and more, while Tapu Fini can take them all on more or less with just max hp alone. The most noteworthy feature here is Hidden Power Rock, which serves the main purpose of taking out Charizard-Y and Pinsir. The pinch of Defense and Special Defense are there mostly for the purpose of cementing your odds against certain attacks (Porygon-Z's Hyper Beam and Mawile's Play Rough + Sucker combo).

gifs didn't feel like cooperating with me, so no fancy gifs :(
Edit: ok nvm, NOW they decide to work

The team takes on just about everything common that people use in 1v1, the only things in the upper ranks that beat it being the awkward Deo-D, Meloetta, and physical Tapu Koko? Specially defensive Slowbro.

And, yes, you can copy and paste these sets into teambuilder and it'll work, though you will need to finish the mons yourself, since I'm not just gonna build a whole team for you :L
Rock Tomb and Taunt are definitely the best choices on Heatran at the moment. You can beat Deoxys-Defense, Jumpluff and Curse Mimikyu with them, which is very nice. Physical Tapu Koko would seem to 3-0 you also.
 

Felucia

Robot Empress
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
[18:19] Glyx✧☆:ok if I win this tour I'm submitting the team

Congratulations to Glyx✧☆ for winning the [Gen 7] 1v1 Double Elimination Tournament!

I'm a woman of my word dammit-

I present you all with: The Anti-Everything Team!

The Conk Donker:
View attachment 81365
Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist / Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 204 Atk / 52 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hammer Arm / Drain Punch / Mach Punch
- Filler

So basically, this guy's role is to be a counter for zard/kyub/gyara/koko/pz/aegi/and many more.
With all that spdef and an assault vest, it tanks Blast Burns and Gigavolt Havocs pretty well, as well as other special hits, and promptly 1/2hko's everything it needs to. Keep in mind, if you wanna be a legit counter to Gyarados, you're gonna need Thunder Punch. The 204+ Attack stat is particularly to make sure that it can 3HKO Gyarados with Thunder Punch and Mach Punch in case it's a bulky spread and mega evolves turn 1, in case you have no alternative fighting STAB. The minimum speed is to guaranteed underspeed Aegislash and ohko with Earthquake when it attacks. The 52 Defense is what's leftover after building to handle everything it needs to, you can do with these as you please, though I find that they help for taking attacks from Gyarados.

The melting pile of magma and steel that's somehow light enough to be lifted by a balloon:
View attachment 81367
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 204 Def / 232 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Filler
- Filler

Heatran's always been a top choice among anti-meta mons, though this is a bit of a different approach in terms of EVs, the typical spread being one that's crept to outspeed Charizard after Rock Tomb, or other mons of similar speed tiers. This Heatran, however, focuses more on beating what it needs to, since, realistically, nobody runs Earthquake or Focus Blast Charizard. It has the minimum necessary SpA to guaranteed 1hko max hp Aegi while being speed crept to outspeed max speed Crustle. It doesn't really have many options for Fillers though, mostly circulating between Ancientpower for the zards, Taunt for stall, and WoW for breaking physical mons as well as Sturdy. Technically, it only needs 176 Def evs to tank a max atk Hammer Arm from Metagross, but it definitely appreciates having the extra remaining evs as well, since its typing alone will determine whether it wins any matchups against special attackers or not.

I'm good I swear ;-;:
View attachment 81372
Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 216 SpA / 20 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Moonblast
- Filler

While Primarina and Fini have type, moveset, and niche in common, the two are set apart mostly by the things they counter, which is determined mostly by their bulkiness, Primarina needing a lot more bulk to take on the heavy hitters like Kyurem, Pinsir, Porygon-Z, Aegislash, and more, while Tapu Fini can take them all on more or less with just max hp alone. The most noteworthy feature here is Hidden Power Rock, which serves the main purpose of taking out Charizard-Y and Pinsir. The pinch of Defense and Special Defense are there mostly for the purpose of cementing your odds against certain attacks (Porygon-Z's Hyper Beam and Mawile's Play Rough + Sucker combo).

gifs didn't feel like cooperating with me, so no fancy gifs :(
Edit: ok nvm, NOW they decide to work

The team takes on just about everything common that people use in 1v1, the only things in the upper ranks that beat it being the awkward Deo-D, Meloetta, and physical Tapu Koko? Specially defensive Slowbro.

And, yes, you can copy and paste these sets into teambuilder and it'll work, though you will need to finish the mons yourself, since I'm not just gonna build a whole team for you :L
I'm just sitting here thinking "Rosa, are you sure that beats my koko....?"
 

Gross Sweep

Plan Ahead
is a CAP Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Mega Salamence


Mega Salamence left ORAS 1v1 in a double suspect where it shared the same fate of being disallowed as its testing partner Blaziken. In that test I voted to BAN M-Salamence, but I feel a lot has changed since then and would like to consider a retest of M-Salamence. Last generation I feel M-Salamence really became broken with it's ability to 2hko most of the meta and eat just about any non SE hit, coupled with a max speed of 372 allowing it to out speed a large portion of the meta. In the rest of this post I'll be highlighting what Gen 7 has done to balance this making M-Salamence possibly reasonable in 1v1 again. (Going to try keeping this a tad brief, so if I miss something please add/comment on it in the thread - discussion on this mon is the end goal anyway).

Before I get much further I would like to say: M-Salamence will be undoubtedly one of the best mons in the tier if allowed to reenter. I'm not trying to make this post with regards to M-Salamence coming back to the tier as an average mon, but more as a top tier threat who isn't truly worthy of the title "broken".

Great Qualities:

  • Mega Salamence has a pair of great abilities in Intimidate (Pre-Mega) and Aerilate (Post-Mega) that give it a lot of utility. With intimidate M-Salamence is able to tank a lot of hits and improve its bulk similar to M-Gyara using Intimidate Pre-Mega to become extremely tanky. Then M-Salamence uses Aerilate to boost its power, and goes on a rampage picking up kills all over the ladder.
  • M-Salamence has great versatility in the fact it's a mon with several coverage options and can run a physical or special set. Usable Physical moves: Double-Edge, Giga Impact, Outrage, Earthquake, Aqua Tail, Rock Slide, and Fire Fang. Usable Special Moves: Draco Meteor, Hyper Voice, Hyper Beam, Hydro Pump, and Fire Blast. Usable Utility: Substitute and Dragon Dance.
  • M-Salamence posses a top speed of 372 allowing it to out speed a large proportion of the metagame giving it an edge in a lot of match ups. M-Salamence is also a Pseudo legend giving it great overall bulk, especially when coupled with intimidate.
Hindrances:
  • The rise of the Tapus and other Fairy type Pokemon like Primarina really hinder M-Salamence as they provide teams with common checks.
  • Aerilate received a nerf this generation. Aerilate boosts power by 1.2x this gen instead of 1.3x - this change is small, but it definitely has an effect on M-Salamence's damage output.
  • M-Salamence enjoyed the ability to take a hit from almost any non super effective hit, but the rise of Z-moves could lead to M-Salamence being ohko'd in more scenarios hurting its overall value as a team member.
Pokemon M-Salamence Beats Most of the Time:

Pokemon M-Salamence Loses to Most of the Time:

Obviously more mons win or lose to M-mence I just wanted to post a few quick examples. I also didn't want to have people start calling for a mons removal from beat/loses to with respect to an odd set or scarf, so I tried to stay away from those mons.

Mega Salamence is a mon that was unquestionably a terror last generation, but the times are changing. The rise of fairies and Z moves give lots of mons a chance to fight back. Common new pokemon like Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Primaina, and Mimikyu are all able to help keep M-Salamence in check. However, M-Salamence is still an extremely scary match up as it forces a team to run a fairy, bulky steel, fast mon with ice coverage, or possily a sturdy mon who can hit SE like Crustle. I feel M-Salamence wouldn't run away with the tier like it did last generation, but its return would definitely put building in a bit of a box - so that's something to consider.


M-Salamence is an interesting Pokemon that I'm not entirely sure on whether or not it belongs in the tier to be honest. However, do to this uncertainty I tend to lean towards a retest as anything not unquestionably broken (including mons like Blaziken and Darkrai) deserve a chance to see if they belong.
 
Last edited:

DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Welcome to the second Pre-Suspect, you probably know the rules but I have added a few. If you don't know what a pre-suspect is, it's easy, you get requirements vote for 2 or 1 Pokemon (depending on the number of Pokemon there's in the slate, that number will be given to you after you quality) you think deserve to be suspected, you can vote only one and abstain for your other vote (if you can vote for 2 ofc). If that Pokemon gets more than 60% it will be suspected this month.
- A Pokemon needs to get at least 60% of the votes so it can be considered as a suspect.
- New: If two Pokemon gets 60% votes we won't do a double suspect since it just make us see if the Pokemon is good for the metagame or not. We will only pick the Pokemon with the highest number of votes to suspect test.
- New: We won't have public voting due to the easy manipulations in pre-suspect, instead you will only post your reqs on the thread and the voting will take place somewhere else. I will mention that later.

For the month of May we have decided to go with these options that were discussed in the past:
  • Jirachi as a banning decision
  • Gyaradosite as a banning decision
  • Blaziken as an unbanning decision.
Mega Gyarados has rapidly made itself the face of Gen VII 1v1 to the point that a part of the community labels it as "Broken" while the others diminish these sayings. This makes Mega Gyarados a controversial topic. The arguments that go in favor of how broken is Mega Gyarados are based on many aspects firstly its amazing typing combined with its stats and abilities making it a scary bulky set up Pokemon allowing it to devastate many teams. Secondly, its versatility making it hard to prepare for it restricting team building options. More arguments were given but these are the main points which put this Pokemon on the borderline.

Ok Jirachi might seem a weird option but a lot of people have been complaining about it and I can't not give them the chance to voice their opinion even more. The reason this was put up on this list is because people think that Jirachi is only luck based and doesn't bring anything positive to the metagame except hax which is unhealthy.

There's a nice post by user "Lost Heros" explaining why.


Requirements:
You have until Saturday 23:59 UTC to qualify and to be able to vote for this pre-suspect you have to:
-Make an account with the tag BGJ and ladder on the 1v1 ladder.
-Reach 1500 ELO with a GXE of 75% in less than 70 games, it might be strict but this allows it to get most experienced players to not mess up with our metagame. (Reqs may be lowered if TI and I think it's too hard)
-Wait for us to tell you where to post your qualifications.


Smart discussion is highly encouraged during this period, happy laddering!
 

dom

Banned deucer.
Hi lads so I'm going to be a good boy and post this time!

So for mdos, I recall seeing a great post by glyx I think, and it basically said that it isn't inherently broken and that banning it would cause a massively unhealthy decentralization that would ruin the tier. Don't have much to add to it.

For jirachi, people act like it flinches physdef zardxs and mdoses regularly. For this to happen, you'd have to get extremely lucky, to point where you need like 8-10 flinches against mdos which is a 1% chance. One percent. Nobody's saying to ban crits which are 6(well actually some1 did in this thread lmaooo) but it of course was not taken seriously. The chances of beating a zardy are 20% and thats the fast one that's pretty bad. This kind of luck is part of the (shitty) game and you have to deal with it. Jirachi isn't nothing without serene grace. It's pretty niche/bad, yes, but I could see myself using it without it.

For blaziken, it's so insanely versatile that it has very few counters. There are checks, yes, but blaziken can choose what it wants to beat. Even without crazy specialized sets, it's so anti-meta that I can see it being really unhealthy.
 
As more and more Ubers show up in discussion, we need to make a list of Ubers that will never be considered. So far on this list we have Groudon and Kyurem-W - a safe place to start our way down the Ubers.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
As more and more Ubers show up in discussion, we need to make a list of Ubers that will never be considered. So far on this list we have Groudon and Kyurem-W - a safe place to start our way down the Ubers.
That's a great idea. We really have been blurring the line between what's ban-worthy and what isn't. Here's my list:
Arceus (All but bug), Deoxys-A, Dialga, Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Primal Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Lugia, Lunala, Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Rayquaza, Reshiram, Xerneas and Yveltal.
 
That's a great idea. We really have been blurring the line between what's ban-worthy and what isn't. Here's my list:
Arceus (All but bug), Deoxys-A, Dialga, Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Primal Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Lugia, Lunala, Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Rayquaza, Reshiram, Xerneas and Yveltal.
>puts kyogre
>no groudon

:( come on man if were gonna use groudon let me use kyogre
 

DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
From now on send me a private message on Smogon with your reqs and both of your votes, thanks.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
My reasoning was Kyogre has a terrifying choice scarf set while Groudon... umm... oh yeah, it has no real niche over PDon lol.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
jfc I'm posting way too much all of a sudden

Today, I'd like to talk about something that was added back with the change to gen 7: Species Clause

Species clause is one of those mechanics that we take for granted until it's gone or added, comparable to several other changes in mechanics that significantly changed other OMs like EVs in BH, clauses on moves and/or abilities in AAA Sketchmons and many more OMs related to such things, reveals in Inheritance, and many more. Now the difference between most of these things is that some mechanics are enforced by the actual games themselves, like the aforementioned changes to EVs in BH, while other mechanics are enforced for the explicit purpose of balancing out a meta either by a collective consensus of the playerbase of those metas, the sentiment of a council or leader chosen to maintain the meta, or the overall leader/s of the OM community. Why this is important is because changes made to balance out OMs are typically not able to be edited unless there's a mass disapproval of them within the playerbase (with some exceptions). This is the purpose of this post, to gather the collective thoughts of everyone who reads the 1v1 thread in hopes of being able to make a change to the meta that we all know most people in the actual 1v1 room want.

With that said, here's why I, personally, want the species clause to be removed again:
The metagame is heavily centralized across the few viable pokemon who occupy the upper tiers of our Viability Rankings, which has even pushed many people to the point of thinking that mons who are used a lot should be mons who get banned, ie the large push for Gyarados to get suspected and even banned. This kind of centralization is only helped by the Species Clause, which only limits the ways in which we can build our teams, which brings into question the reason why we have species clause to begin with. If we look back into just about every other scenario where a Species Clause is enforced, it is mainly used to keep players from outright spamming the meta with mons who can heavily sway teambuilding if you were allowed to bring multiple of them, which is reasonable. The difference, however, in 1v1 is that we're only allowed the use of one Pokemon per battle, which almost completely undoes the notion of having to fight the same mon twice in one battle that the regular 6v6 formats would have, since you're already having to consider every possible set that the potential pokemon could run, regardless of whether there's one or two of them on the opponent's team.

With that said, there are pros and cons of every decision, so I'll try my best to point out as many advantages and disadvantages that the removal of the clause would enact. Keep in mind that whether or not these are advantages or disadvantages is determined by myself, since there isn't really a set mindset towards how we should approach issues like this that has been established for 1v1, to my knowledge.

Pros:
  • Less restrictions in teambuilding, which is always good
  • Alternative methods to combat the centralization of the meta will be created
  • Most of the higher mons in the VR only have one or two good sets to use anyways, which means they likely won't centralize the meta even more than they already do
  • It would provide people with better incentive towards using alternative sets instead of always having to use the most common ones
  • It promotes learning about and being better at the meta, since people who only know/only use the common generic sets will now have to think about the alternative sets that are becoming more common as a result of the reason above

Cons:
  • We take the risk of the already centralizing mons becoming even more centralizing, despite how few alternative sets they have, which is unlikely, but still a potential risk
  • The lacking of the many megas as well as Custap Berry from last generation will always leave the future of the meta into uncertainty until we get them back, but we won't know what's healthy or not for the meta until we make the effort to change it
  • Since this would be a change in mechanic, it would be difficult to get it changed back in the event that things don't end up turning out how we hoped
  • Nobody at all may capitalize on the new potential granted by the clause's removal, but hey, at least we'd know it wasn't holding back anything broken or uncompetitive in that case
  • There may be small confusion in the fact that people won't be able to use multiple Kyurem-Black due to the in-game mechanic of Gene Splicers only being able to be used once per combination of Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram, which is nice because many people will likely agree that Kyurem-Black is the one mon most people DON'T want running around in teams of three, but that goes into the issue of whether or not Kyurem-Black should even be allowed in 1v1, which I'll avoid talking about due to not being the main point of focus for this post

So with everything said and done, what do you guys think? Should we remove Species Clause? Is there anything I may have missed? Even if you don't have any comments towards my particular post, please share your thoughts on the Species Clause, since change can only happen if we generate discussion.

Thanks for reading :)
 
jfc I'm posting way too much all of a sudden

Today, I'd like to talk about something that was added back with the change to gen 7: Species Clause

Species clause is one of those mechanics that we take for granted until it's gone or added, comparable to several other changes in mechanics that significantly changed other OMs like EVs in BH, clauses on moves and/or abilities in AAA Sketchmons and many more OMs related to such things, reveals in Inheritance, and many more. Now the difference between most of these things is that some mechanics are enforced by the actual games themselves, like the aforementioned changes to EVs in BH, while other mechanics are enforced for the explicit purpose of balancing out a meta either by a collective consensus of the playerbase of those metas, the sentiment of a council or leader chosen to maintain the meta, or the overall leader/s of the OM community. Why this is important is because changes made to balance out OMs are typically not able to be edited unless there's a mass disapproval of them within the playerbase (with some exceptions). This is the purpose of this post, to gather the collective thoughts of everyone who reads the 1v1 thread in hopes of being able to make a change to the meta that we all know most people in the actual 1v1 room want.

With that said, here's why I, personally, want the species clause to be removed again:
The metagame is heavily centralized across the few viable pokemon who occupy the upper tiers of our Viability Rankings, which has even pushed many people to the point of thinking that mons who are used a lot should be mons who get banned, ie the large push for Gyarados to get suspected and even banned. This kind of centralization is only helped by the Species Clause, which only limits the ways in which we can build our teams, which brings into question the reason why we have species clause to begin with. If we look back into just about every other scenario where a Species Clause is enforced, it is mainly used to keep players from outright spamming the meta with mons who can heavily sway teambuilding if you were allowed to bring multiple of them, which is reasonable. The difference, however, in 1v1 is that we're only allowed the use of one Pokemon per battle, which almost completely undoes the notion of having to fight the same mon twice in one battle that the regular 6v6 formats would have, since you're already having to consider every possible set that the potential pokemon could run, regardless of whether there's one or two of them on the opponent's team.

With that said, there are pros and cons of every decision, so I'll try my best to point out as many advantages and disadvantages that the removal of the clause would enact. Keep in mind that whether or not these are advantages or disadvantages is determined by myself, since there isn't really a set mindset towards how we should approach issues like this that has been established for 1v1, to my knowledge.

Pros:
  • Less restrictions in teambuilding, which is always good
  • Alternative methods to combat the centralization of the meta will be created
  • Most of the higher mons in the VR only have one or two good sets to use anyways, which means they likely won't centralize the meta even more than they already do
  • It would provide people with better incentive towards using alternative sets instead of always having to use the most common ones
  • It promotes learning about and being better at the meta, since people who only know/only use the common generic sets will now have to think about the alternative sets that are becoming more common as a result of the reason above

Cons:
  • We take the risk of the already centralizing mons becoming even more centralizing, despite how few alternative sets they have, which is unlikely, but still a potential risk
  • The lacking of the many megas as well as Custap Berry from last generation will always leave the future of the meta into uncertainty until we get them back, but we won't know what's healthy or not for the meta until we make the effort to change it
  • Since this would be a change in mechanic, it would be difficult to get it changed back in the event that things don't end up turning out how we hoped
  • Nobody at all may capitalize on the new potential granted by the clause's removal, but hey, at least we'd know it wasn't holding back anything broken or uncompetitive in that case
  • There may be small confusion in the fact that people won't be able to use multiple Kyurem-Black due to the in-game mechanic of Gene Splicers only being able to be used once per combination of Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram, which is nice because many people will likely agree that Kyurem-Black is the one mon most people DON'T want running around in teams of three, but that goes into the issue of whether or not Kyurem-Black should even be allowed in 1v1, which I'll avoid talking about due to not being the main point of focus for this post

So with everything said and done, what do you guys think? Should we remove Species Clause? Is there anything I may have missed? Even if you don't have any comments towards my particular post, please share your thoughts on the Species Clause, since change can only happen if we generate discussion.

Thanks for reading :)
The biggest reason I think letting species clause come back wouldn't change much is that there was only one team that used more than one of a particular pokemon in gen 6. Namely, the triple Porygon-Z team with one Specs, one Scarf, and one Custap P-Z. That team isn't even possible in gen 7 because Custap berry is unreleased. With the addition of Z-moves three Kyurem-Black teams might've become a problem, but GameFreak took care of that for us, as Glyx mentioned. I can't think of any reason not to get rid of Species Clause. It won't break the meta and if no one takes advantage of its absence, it's no big deal.
 
The biggest reason I think letting species clause come back wouldn't change much is that there was only one team that used more than one of a particular pokemon in gen 6. Namely, the triple Porygon-Z team with one Specs, one Scarf, and one Custap P-Z. That team isn't even possible in gen 7 because Custap berry is unreleased. With the addition of Z-moves three Kyurem-Black teams might've become a problem, but GameFreak took care of that for us, as Glyx mentioned. I can't think of any reason not to get rid of Species Clause. It won't break the meta and if no one takes advantage of its absence, it's no big deal.
This is mostly true. Yes species clause might not have too much of an impact, but I think we should let the people vote to determine that. It is also true 3 identical mon teams were quite uncommon, but I actually encountered a lot of double Charizard-Mega teams last gen and have also considered making a double MegaGross team. As has been hinted, the species clause removal doesn't have too much negative impact overall, but it should still be put up to vote if it is the people's desire.

Great bringing this up Glyx :)
 
Am I mistaken in the assumption that in a cartridge 1v1 setting, you'd simply trade over other Kyurem-Blacks? I skipped BW2 so I'm unfamiliar with the explicit mechanics.
 
My thought on Species Clause:

I want to say this off the bat: I am against the removal of Species Clause.

The sole benefit in my mind for a healthy meta would be making counter teaming much more difficult on the ladder, which of course is a pain.

However, I think that Kentari is vastly understating the use of non species clause teams. While I was not heavily into 1v1 in Gen 6 I am decent at this gen, and knowing how many Pokemon have something called 4MSS, or 4 Move-slot syndrome.

Going to define a word to begin with, and it is critical to the current 1v1 meta: Opportunity Cost: The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.

Many people find it difficult to make choices regarding anything. This obviously goes in our case for picking moves for Pokémon, as you have only 4 moveslots for a plethora of potentially viable moves. 4-Moveslot Syndrome is defined as a Pokemon's tendency to want to use more moves than they have room for.

Some good examples: Lets take Metagross, for example. I don't use Metagross because of 4MSS, which makes opportunity cost on using Metagross relative to the moveset. Mega-Metagross can literally beat 95% of the meta with combinations of 3 sets, and while I can't give specific examples BattleDragon and I have had conversations on sim about this.

Snorlax: I know for a fact that varients of at least 2 different Snorlax sets exist out there that beat very different things. There is the Normalizium-Z Thick Fat Belly Drum set, which beats Zards, Gyarados, Kyub, and other Megas (and utterly loses to any Ghost type), while the Gluttony Pinch Berry Curse set is great for beating Landorus, Tapus, Aegislash, better handles Physical attackers and other Z move users.

Charizard: Literally, being able to run 2 Charizards (X and a Y) with some coverage on a third mon would change the meta in a big way. Defensive mons like Slowbro would lose viability just for the fact of Opportunity Cost of using Zard Y over Zard X would be completely gone. Even Mega-Charizard-X has a few different sets used to beat sturdy mons and other Physical attackers.

Mimikyu: Actually what the heck. Mimikyu is a huge danger as it is able to run 3 different main sets: Fairium Z, Ghostium Z, and Curse. As most of you experienced players well know, A danger of Mimikyu is that you need to play these sets differently. Slow Pokemon would drop in a big way because of Curse Mimikyu, and the powerhouse dragons of the meta must beware Twinkle Tackle, and Aegislash, the most common Fairy Counter in the meta with the exception of the hopefully banned Jirachi. If Mega-Gyarados gets banned Mimikyu in a 1v1 Meta without Species Clause would be incredibly dangerous.

I could name countless others, but unfortunately my battery is hella low.

In other news:

I want to just quickly mention to you suspect voters who have not voted that Mega-Gyarados holds the meta together. The last thing we need is to see a huge uprise in Sturdy mons like Golem and Donphan, bringing down viability of perfectly viable mons like Pinsir, Porygon, Tapu-Koko, and others. While Megados is at the top of the Useage rankings for a good reason, a meta without Mega-Gyarados is a meta that is far less diverse than the one we have now.

My battery is about to die
- Esteemed Random
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
The sole benefit in my mind for a healthy meta would be making counter teaming much more difficult on the ladder, which of course is a pain.
Wouldn't providing new ways to approach teambuilding naturally limit counterteaming? I mean, there are some exclusions in relation to mons whose alternative sets are so different that they have their own different ranges of strengths and weaknesses (namely Porygon-Z and Deoxys-Defense), but most mons other than those generally beat the same things as their more typical sets do anyways, with a few exceptions caused by coverage.
Some good examples: Lets take Metagross, for example. I don't use Metagross because of 4MSS, which makes opportunity cost on using Metagross relative to the moveset. Mega-Metagross can literally beat 95% of the meta with combinations of 3 sets, and while I can't give specific examples BattleDragon and I have had conversations on sim about this.
It's possible to create teams that beat 100% of the meta without needing species clause. As it is and will always be, most battles are going to be marked up to who makes the right pick at team preview, Species Clause will never change that. Now if you were able to make a team that beats every possible combination of mons, then I'd be impressed.
Charizard: Literally, being able to run 2 Charizards (X and a Y) with some coverage on a third mon would change the meta in a big way. Defensive mons like Slowbro would lose viability just for the fact of Opportunity Cost of using Zard Y over Zard X would be completely gone. Even Mega-Charizard-X has a few different sets used to beat sturdy mons and other Physical attackers.
You always have to keep a Charizard's potential sets in mind regardless of whether there's 1, 2, or 3 of them on the opponent's team, and with this generation, there are so many things that just counteract Charizard as a whole. Facing multiple Charizards, as well as multiple of any other significant mon, would imbue upon newer players the notions of:
  • how important it is to learn your opponents' teams
  • that you can't just dive in with one or two teams and expect great success
  • and that mons can have more than one significant set and that those sets act as extensions of the mon's capabilities
 
My thought on Species Clause:

I want to say this off the bat: I am against the removal of Species Clause.

The sole benefit in my mind for a healthy meta would be making counter teaming much more difficult on the ladder, which of course is a pain.

However, I think that Kentari is vastly understating the use of non species clause teams. While I was not heavily into 1v1 in Gen 6 I am decent at this gen, and knowing how many Pokemon have something called 4MSS, or 4 Move-slot syndrome.

Going to define a word to begin with, and it is critical to the current 1v1 meta: Opportunity Cost: The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.

Many people find it difficult to make choices regarding anything. This obviously goes in our case for picking moves for Pokémon, as you have only 4 moveslots for a plethora of potentially viable moves. 4-Moveslot Syndrome is defined as a Pokemon's tendency to want to use more moves than they have room for.

Some good examples: Lets take Metagross, for example. I don't use Metagross because of 4MSS, which makes opportunity cost on using Metagross relative to the moveset. Mega-Metagross can beat the majority of the meta with combinations of 3 sets, and while I can't give specific examples BattleDragon and I have had conversations on sim about this.

Snorlax: I know for a fact that varients of at least 2 different Snorlax sets exist out there that beat very different things. There is the Normalizium-Z Thick Fat Belly Drum set, which beats Zards, Gyarados, Kyub, and other Megas (and utterly loses to any Ghost type), while the Gluttony Pinch Berry Curse set is great for beating Landorus, Tapus, Aegislash, better handles Physical attackers and other Z move users.

Charizard: Literally, being able to run 2 Charizards (X and a Y) with some coverage on a third mon would change the meta in a big way. Defensive mons like Slowbro would lose viability just for the fact of Opportunity Cost of using Zard Y over Zard X would be completely gone. Even Mega-Charizard-X has a few different sets used to beat sturdy mons and other Physical attackers.

Mimikyu: Actually what the heck. Mimikyu is a huge danger as it is able to run 3 different main sets: Fairium Z, Ghostium Z, and Curse. As most of you experienced players well know, A danger of Mimikyu is that you need to play these sets differently. Slow Pokemon would drop in a big way because of Curse Mimikyu, and the powerhouse dragons of the meta must beware Twinkle Tackle, and Aegislash, the most common Fairy Counter in the meta with the exception of the hopefully banned Jirachi. If Mega-Gyarados gets banned Mimikyu in a 1v1 Meta without Species Clause would be incredibly dangerous.

I could name countless others, but unfortunately my battery is hella low.

In other news:

I want to just quickly mention to you suspect voters who have not voted that Mega-Gyarados holds the meta together. The last thing we need is to see a huge uprise in Sturdy mons like Golem and Donphan, bringing down viability of perfectly viable mons like Pinsir, Porygon, Tapu-Koko, and others. While Megados is at the top of the Useage rankings for a good reason, a meta without Mega-Gyarados is a meta that is far less diverse than the one we have now.

My battery is about to die
- Esteemed Random
I was tagged so I must say something. It is true double or triple MegaGross can beat a large chunk of the meta, but I value running Meloetta alongside MegaGross just as much, and TBF, Meloetta does the job just as good already. If anything, I'm leaving myself open to lose to mons like Char-Y and Victini by running a second MegaGross. Thats totally fine if you wanna be a newb like me, though.

Perhaps you can think about it this way:
Lets say I have a Charizard-Mega-Y for my teams first mon, and I have no choice but to to beat some specific threats... For example: Tapu Koko and Golem. I can choose to run Charizard-Mega-X to maybe beat Tapu Koko or I can choose to run Gyarados-Mega to beat Golem. Really, either choice could work if you design the mon right, but in that case its just another mon with a similar characteristics (ignoring the different items, abilities, EV spreads or movesets that you'll probably run).

If we want to go in the direction of metagame limiting clauses based off real gameplay examples, I propose an item clause.
 
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lost heros

Meme Master
I have to disagree with removing species clause. Removing species clause is wholly unnecessary to me. The lack of a species clause provides nothing useful for the meta and purely forces the more predictions than necessary for players. Species Clause restricts certain pokemon (Charizard, PZ, Mimikyu, MGyarados, MMetagross) from circumventing their own checks.

Consider these following examples:

I have Umbreon on my team. My opponent has a Charizard on their team. Now Umbreon can fairly easily beat both Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y (that lack air slash), however it can only do so if I play correctly, which differs from which Mega Charizard form my opponent has. For many skilled players, this is actually pretty easy to figure out which Charizard form the opponent is running, based on what we know about the opponent, what the opponent has run before, and most importantly what pokemon is on their team. However, if a player uses both Mega Charizard Y and Mega Charizard X on one team, not only is it impossible for me to figure out which is which, but it's also incredibly difficult for me to play correctly. In other words, I'm put at a disadvantage because it becomes impossible to make the best play.

I have a Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y, and Rest Mega Slowbro on my team. My opponent has a Porygon Z. Most PZ's run a Choice Scarf, which beats Mega Slowbro and Mega Charizard Y. However, some PZ's run Choice Specs which would beat Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro, but lose to Mega Charizard Y. From this point, I can look at his team and make my best guess if he's not running Scarf (side note: I assume he's running Scarf because it's the most likely option unless his team dissuades me from taking that assumption). If I predict correctly and chose the appropriate pokemon, Mega Venusaur or Mega Charizard Y, or predict his behavior on what I believe he's using, then I'm rewarded with a victory, or I could make a mistake and he is running the other set. However, even if I lose this battle, I can learn and adjust for the next battle. If species clause were removed and my opponent were running two porygon-z's there is no way for me to predict which one is which nor is there anyway for me to give weight to which PZ check I want to use to which it becomes a 50/50 guess on which pokemon to use. In other words, I'm put at a disadvantage because it becomes impossible to make the best choice.


In the end, Species Clause doesn't really add or detract much from the metagame. It somewhat increases the diversity of the metagame, but not anything noticeable. It more importantly prevents 50/50's between a strong pokemon and its checks. Now while that's not a huge benefit, it's important enough to be left alone.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
I have Umbreon on my team. My opponent has a Charizard on their team. Now Umbreon can fairly easily beat both Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y (that lack air slash), however it can only do so if I play correctly, which differs from which Mega Charizard form my opponent has. For many skilled players, this is actually pretty easy to figure out which Charizard form the opponent is running, based on what we know about the opponent, what the opponent has run before, and most importantly what pokemon is on their team. However, if a player uses both Mega Charizard Y and Mega Charizard X on one team, not only is it impossible for me to figure out which is which, but it's also incredibly difficult for me to play correctly. In other words, I'm put at a disadvantage because it becomes impossible to make the best play.
Wouldn't you have to play correctly regardless of which Charizard the opponent uses? Who's to say they can't just switch which Charizard they use against you every time you battle normally? You always end up having to assume which Charizard they use, based off of your prior knowledge and experience, rather than directly knowing what they're using by looking at their teambuilder. This is why it's good to enforce beating the entire mon rather than particular sets, since Charizard, while being split across two Mega Evolutions, is still counted as just one mon. And the removal of species clause would help us come to the conclusion that if it's unfair to run multiple of a pokemon, even in 1v1, then it should be considered either for limitation or removal, like Kyurem-Black, since, even though it's limited by the game mechanics, I'm pretty sure we'd have banned this thing long ago if it were allowed to have multiple on a team.
So in short, even if individual mons may become significantly better as a result of the clause's removal, we should weigh down on whether these mons are fair for use overall, instead of blaming the clause, since removing what makes a mon good would be like allowing Deoxys-Defense into OU as long as it can't use Recover, or something to that extent.
I have a Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y, and Rest Mega Slowbro on my team. My opponent has a Porygon Z. Most PZ's run a Choice Scarf, which beats Mega Slowbro and Mega Charizard Y. However, some PZ's run Choice Specs which would beat Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro, but lose to Mega Charizard Y. From this point, I can look at his team and make my best guess if he's not running Scarf (side note: I assume he's running Scarf because it's the most likely option unless his team dissuades me from taking that assumption). If I predict correctly and chose the appropriate pokemon, Mega Venusaur or Mega Charizard Y, or predict his behavior on what I believe he's using, then I'm rewarded with a victory, or I could make a mistake and he is running the other set. However, even if I lose this battle, I can learn and adjust for the next battle. If species clause were removed and my opponent were running two porygon-z's there is no way for me to predict which one is which nor is there anyway for me to give weight to which PZ check I want to use to which it becomes a 50/50 guess on which pokemon to use. In other words, I'm put at a disadvantage because it becomes impossible to make the best choice.
Specs Porygon-Z is just an alternative set, you could simply replace it with Meloetta and the same result would be reached. This is what I mean by mons whose alternative sets are so different from the norm, rather than being treated like an extension of the original mon, it basically transforms them into a new mon altogether. The only downside being that the mons who can capitalize on this factor will rise up for sure, but considering that none of them are threats that have ever, or ever will, be considered unhealthy to the meta, I think we'll be fine.
In the end, Species Clause doesn't really add or detract much from the metagame. It somewhat increases the diversity of the metagame, but not anything noticeable. It more importantly prevents 50/50's between a strong pokemon and its checks. Now while that's not a huge benefit, it's important enough to be left alone.
If you're willing to mark it up to being about as worthless as Zygarde-C, why do nothing about it then? The meta is in a pit where everyone is running either generic as heck teams or memes like Umbreon and Durant, and you'd rather that we stay there? The meta needs to be shaken up, which is thankfully being done by the gradually returning Mega stones, but we can't just sit around and do nothing all the time, even if it'd just be for minor changes like this.
 

twinkay

these bugs love all the sugar in my blood
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Rejection message I had when trying to battle with a team:
Your team was rejected for the following reasons: - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1. - Gengar-Mega has the combination of Hypnosis + Gengarite, which is banned by [Gen 7] 1v1.

This is a bug, right? (This is an actual c/p of the rejection btw, it literally had that many copies of the same message!)

Pokémon:
Arceus, Blaziken, Darkrai, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Normal, Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Kyurem-White, Lugia, Lunala, Mega Kangaskhan (Kangaskhanite), Mega Salamence (Salamencite), Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-Sky, Solgaleo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Zygarde-Complete (Power Construct)

Items: Focus Sash

Moves: Perish Song
 
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