Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk IV

[acidphoenix]

cherrim is i believe the closest to a relevant thing that actually gets nerfed by passing BRT 17 cutoff so, in my opinion, this should be overall irrelevant to whether or not this change becomes implemented


given the ssheet presented i think the question of the r3 cutoff boils down to


Does the potential negative presented by the buffs to Kecleon, Gengar, and Aurumoth(or any other mons that could create such a negative) outweigh the positive created by increasing the spread of viable Pokemon(as shown in the "ACTUALLY RELEVANT" sheet), or otherwise reach a similar enough degree to make preservation of the status quo the preferable option?


~~~~~~~~~~~

An aside: can we please unnerf Greninja; yes this will make it a good mon, no it won't make it a mon that in any way justifies a nerf specific to one Pokemon

i do believe it was only broken in the first place because the era in which it was nerfed did not use AND NOT TYPE subs

~~~~~~~~~~

also please move fluffy to +5 like should have been done when we decided on consistency things in the first place.....

 

[Dogfish44]

"Belly Drum will fail if the user is at or below half of its maximum HP."

Belly Drum still has this although it costs 30% now, not 50%. I'm changing that to match in 24 hours unless someone raises an actual objection. k? k.

 

[zarator]

I would like to spend a word talking about the Rank 2/3 cutoff, because I was around when it was done and I am among those who, despite my roster being hit pretty hard by the change at that time (I had Gengar, Chandelure, and Zoroark among others), feels that this change was for the best - in other words, I believe it would be a mistake to revert to the old system.

Looking at the various cutoffs, it's pretty clear that, at the moment, Rank 3 is by far the biggest one. Only Rank 2 covers a wider breadth of stats, weighted (Rank 9-10 apparently covers more but, in relative/percentage terms, not really). This means that this rank has also the biggest variance when it comes to comparing "ASB stuff" to "cartridge" stuff. For example, if you pick things with, say, Rank 5 Defense (such as Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Gigalith, etc.) they do feel approximately "on the same level" in cartridge as much as they do in ASB. Rank 3 Defense is a whole different story, though: Azelf and Poliwrath may have the same physical bulk in ASB, but this hardly reflects how they are "felt like" in cartridge games.

What I am getting to is that, while every cutoff we decide would be arbitrary (60 no more than 61), making it wider would make things even more "absurd", to an extent. It would mean, for example, that suddenly Zoroark is as bulky as a Hydreigon. It would mean that, now, Spinda has the same offensive stats of Lugia. While it would make more mons viable, it would also significantly increase the number of mons sitting in the already-pretty-crowded Rank 3 benchmark, thus increasing the feeling of mons having all the "same stats". Even now, the amount of Pokemon with a bunch of Rank 3 stats is surprising, even when these mons are actually (or should actually feel) more diverse than they are.

When we decided to raise the cutoff from 56 to 61, the reasoning was pretty much the same as when we lowered it from 130 to 125 (yeah back then the cutoff for Rank 5 was 130): the variance was too large. Sure, it sucked if you were Zoroark (which many brought up as one of the main complaints against the cutoff change, even back then). But at the same time, it did feel reasonable that Gengar shouldn't be as physically bulky as Dragonite, just like how it felt odd that Bisharp or Hydreigon had rank 4 offenses along with the likes of Tauros or Starmie.

In conclusion, before claiming that we should do this to "revitalize" the metagame, or to make more mons viable, more thought should be given to how this change would relativize (is this even a word) the already-kinda-unimpactful stats difference around the average mean. Besides, while it may appear that this change would only make some mons "better" (aside from the obvious RC/Everstone issues), you should not forget that raising the stats of a bunch of mons might make many others worse by comparison - especially when some of those who would benefits are also pretty good mons like Gengar and the aforementioned Kecleon. Basically, if you already have Rank 3 stats across the board, you are at risk of getting comparatively worse after the change - which in the end might leave the overall number of viable mons substantially unchanged, killing the entire point of the proposal.

EDIT: Okay maybe it wasn't just a word but when was the last time somebody said "I want to spend a word about X" and it rly was just a word?

 

[Toon]

An aside: can we please unnerf Greninja; yes this will make it a good mon, no it won't make it a mon that in any way justifies a nerf specific to one Pokemon

i do believe it was only broken in the first place because the era in which it was nerfed did not use AND NOT TYPE subs

I sorta agree with this, only reason i have any disagreement is because it was voted to a nerf and i feel bad to overturn something but eh

also please move fluffy to +5 like should have been done when we decided on consistency things in the first place.....

This is an interesting one that im still not sure on. It does matches ingame since contact attacks, that are not fire type, are halved iirc but also in asb seem pretty strong or can hurt it vs a fire type (double edge sword ig), I think the way it is now is fine but like phoenix been saying we're basically nerfing the red panda (by not following ingame) if it's not +5/-5 then i think we sorta need to state are we going to keep this nerf or should we put it where it is following ingame so phoenix can stop worrying bout this

sorry for like bad grammar, but hope you get what im sayin

 

[Frosty]

Greninja is fine. The previous rare candy was created in an era where protean wasn't a thing, so the boost it gives was ok. When greninja came and its protean had a terrible (or marvelous depending on your point of view) interaction with this obsolete rare candy, the tweak was needed, so rare candy doesn't suddenly give a boost way bigger than the intended one when it was created. Merely us catching up with the game. And I seriously doubt greninja needs more power from rare candy than all other pokemon nor that it is even remotely healthy for the metagame to suddenly have super greninja around dominating everything again. With or without the typing subs, the point stands that the previous rare candy gives a boost to greninja that is pretty much unprecedent due to a bad mechanic interation that we couldn't forsee during the implementation of the original item really.

And I don't buy the "NOT type sub is enough" argument in the slightest. So you manage to overcome SE/NVE manipulation a little bit better for your attacks. But you will still be hit SE almost guaranteed, with STAB on everything and you will still need to waste up subs to do something that, against any other pokemon, came for free. This means that sub is basically "use one sub to maybe be able to hit greninja somewhat similarly to a normal pokemon", so protean is giving, on top of free STAB on everything, free sub eating. I can't possibly conceive any fair reason we should add more to that list.

 

[Elevator Music]

How do people feel about adding a small buff for the weather rocks? The item effect is kinda weak, which is probably why they don't see any use. Any arena that only allows one/some weathers should be tempting to use the weather rock on, but that's not the case because the opponent can easily and immediately just change weather back to their preferred weather.

I propose adding another effect that makes weather set up by a Pokemon holding a weather rock immune to removal for the first X (2? 3?) actions it is up. This is similar to one of the effects of Light Clay right now.

 

[Elevator Music]

Let's update Heal Block.

For one, there's a couple newer moves missing from the description (Heal Pulse, Draining Kiss, etc.). But also we should consider buffing the effect to block more instances of HP recovery? There other items and abilities that restore HP in ASB. The effect should probably block, well, everything that heals HP.

Also, maybe we want to have it block items like Potion? Or maybe we don't.

 

[Exclaimer]

Yeah regenerator Chill is silly, I wonder what battle that's relevant in :)

I agree with the above for updating Heal Block, but I think consumables such as Potions should be unaffected, because in-game it doesn't do so.

One thing to note in that in gen 7, Heal Block doesn't stop Z-Softboiled, Z-Heal Pulse, and other similar moves from working, and it doesn't stop Z-Teleport and the likes from healing either. I'm torn on whether to copy that behavior because it just seems so counter-intuitive.

 

[Toon]

I say copy it b/c it from in-game and it's also works similarly how taunt doesn't stop Z-Status Moves, and plus z crystals are still not popular so no need to be rude to them.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Copy it since we have no reason to make Z-Moves even worse, and no reason to deviate from in-game.

Additionally, some things about Heal Block regarding the moves it currently affects also needs to be changed. For example, Leech Seed can actually still be used in-game, it just does damage without the healing.

Moves that heal allies also cannot be used while under Heal Pulse.

As far as how to generically clean up Heal Block, I suggest this description:

Prevents the target from healing by any means, except for the use of a Z-Move (e.g. Z-Softboiled) and trainer items. The target also is unable to use Wish, Lunar Dance, Healing Wish, Heal Pulse, Pollen Puff (targeting an ally), Floral Healing, a Healing Move (sub class), Purify, any Draining Moves (check Big Root, except Leech Seed). Immunity abilities (e.g. Volt Absorb) still provide their immunities, just not the healing. This does not affect the healing granted by switching out from Regenerator.

On a related note:
- Purify needs to be added to the Healing Move sub class, since all 12 members of that sub class currently are in the same category as it on Bulbapedia, and it is indeed a Healing Move. Also so I can remove a word from Heal Block's description :P (source)

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

Moves that heal allies also cannot be used while under Heal Pulse.

i agree

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

As a note, zmoves can break protect so healing moves break heal block is not inconsistent

 

[Elevator Music]

Sorry to keep bringing up minor changes without resolving the prior ones.

Rock STAB: Can we add Cosmic Power to the list?

 

[Elevator Music]

Double posting so likes can be clearly marked.

Rock STAB: Also, how do people feel about removing Skull Bash from the list? It feels out of place, but I could also see it staying.

 

[Toon]

"Belly Drum will fail if the user is at or below half of its maximum HP."

Belly Drum still has this although it costs 30% now, not 50%. I'm changing that to match in 24 hours unless someone raises an actual objection. k? k.

Is it possible that you could do the same thing to Curse por flavour?

 

[JJayyFeather]

Okay, there are a ton of topics in this thread that haven't been resolved.

======

Starting with some points that I actually failed to make about some things I read a bit ago:

Greninja is fine. The previous rare candy was created in an era where protean wasn't a thing, so the boost it gives was ok. When greninja came and its protean had a terrible (or marvelous depending on your point of view) interaction with this obsolete rare candy, the tweak was needed, so rare candy doesn't suddenly give a boost way bigger than the intended one when it was created.

Calling this a redirection because the problem was not specifically with that interaction, otherwise Kecleon would have also lost its interaction with Everstone, when it was specifically decided otherwise at the time that Kecleon did not also need to be adjusted. With that said, the reasoning for the nerf was because at the time Greninja felt too hard to handle since it was fast, tricky, and powerful, so this nerf was an attempt to remove one aspect of that. However, it was also because the "AND NOT type" subs were not around yet, which means that Greninja has been nerfed again since then. Just pointing this out for when this gets sent to a vote.

also please move fluffy to +5 like should have been done when we decided on consistency things in the first place.....

I'm split on this currently because while we have established +5 as the standard for x2 modifiers, I do not think a pokemon such as Bewear needs that level of bulk AND the unnecessary weakness to Fire, at least at that degree. At +3/-3 it has a noticeable effect without overdoing either aspect of the ability on a Pokemon that hasn't been tested much (if at all tbh) and has potential to go either way currently.

Additionally, there is no real standard for x2, given that every x2 ability does something different: Heatproof (changes the SE mod), Water Bubble (still doubles), Fur Coat (+5/-5), Fluffy (+3/-3). This means that it is much better to treat these cases on a case-by-case basis rather than standardizing it all.

How do people feel about adding a small buff for the weather rocks? The item effect is kinda weak, which is probably why they don't see any use. Any arena that only allows one/some weathers should be tempting to use the weather rock on, but that's not the case because the opponent can easily and immediately just change weather back to their preferred weather.

I propose adding another effect that makes weather set up by a Pokemon holding a weather rock immune to removal for the first X (2? 3?) actions it is up. This is similar to one of the effects of Light Clay right now.

Opposing this change given that the item actually does have its niche, and while that isn't within competitive ASB, it has a lot less to do with the ability to alter the weather and a lot more to do with the fact that having an extended duration of weather doesn't matter too much when the summoning Pokemon would last for a third of the duration or so, and for very little offensive benefit aside from if the Pokemon was like... Ninetales or something and needed the Sun to do massive damage, even though Fire Stone allows her to do the same thing. You could try arguing that it would bring in the advent of weather teams in ASB, but that also wouldn't be the case since the permanence would probably just wear off before you can get around to switching benefits around to the rest of the team.

======

Now for council duties:

Greninja + Rare Candy: Waiting 24h to see what discussion breaks out, then deciding the move.
Fluffy: Same as above
Weather Rocks: Same as above
Heal Block Update: Voting
Rock STAB Update: Voting
Curse Update: Straight to implementation

If people disagree with my decisions here, let me know.

 

[JJayyFeather]

New post for the intention of making a new proposal, so I need to know the likes it gets.

Proposing a clarity change to the combination rules. Somewhere in there this line should be added:

"Unless either move in a combination says otherwise (e.g. Razor Wind's effect that dispels weaker attacks), all effects of a damaging combination are tied to the Attack phase of the combination."​

Specifically, this means that all parts of a combination only happen when the Pokemon is to attack during the turn, and not during any other phase, so not during the charge phase of a Charge-Up Attack or the evasive stage of a Damaging Evasive Move. Sure, this suggestion comes from the fact that I believe that Synthesis + Solar Beam has been horribly misreffed in the past and accepted as precedent even though there was no real reasoning bounded within the rules for its wild deviance from what is known in the rules. But, I do want to broaden the impact of this change to make sure that this never happens again, at least without there being a reasonable penalty for flavor or there being a specific combo tech that allows it.

 

[Dogfish44]

I'll re-iterate my proposal whenever this subject pops up: Allow the user to determine where in the combo non-damaging moves go. Whilst I'm not hugely fond of the original precedent setter, it adds flavour sense to a large number of combinations. More relevantly to that particular wording - that introduces confusion on the matter of Tailwind + Razor Wind (And also means that Razor Wind becomes arbitrarily stronger for it's combo properties).

Alternatively, since 99% of all Charge Move + Status Move comboes function during the charge-up in flavour terms - just link them at that point, and then amend the weird way in which charge up moves resolve priority, perhaps using the D/E method?

My quick 2c on the matter - I don't like the idea of hampering flavour stuff in this way.

 

[Frosty]

Okay, there are a ton of topics in this thread that haven't been resolved.

======

Starting with some points that I actually failed to make about some things I read a bit ago:

Calling this a redirection because the problem was not specifically with that interaction, otherwise Kecleon would have also lost its interaction with Everstone, when it was specifically decided otherwise at the time that Kecleon did not also need to be adjusted. With that said, the reasoning for the nerf was because at the time Greninja felt too hard to handle since it was fast, tricky, and powerful, so this nerf was an attempt to remove one aspect of that. However, it was also because the "AND NOT type" subs were not around yet, which means that Greninja has been nerfed again since then. Just pointing this out for when this gets sent to a vote.


I'm split on this currently because while we have established +5 as the standard for x2 modifiers, I do not think a pokemon such as Bewear needs that level of bulk AND the unnecessary weakness to Fire, at least at that degree. At +3/-3 it has a noticeable effect without overdoing either aspect of the ability on a Pokemon that hasn't been tested much (if at all tbh) and has potential to go either way currently.

Additionally, there is no real standard for x2, given that every x2 ability does something different: Heatproof (changes the SE mod), Water Bubble (still doubles), Fur Coat (+5/-5), Fluffy (+3/-3). This means that it is much better to treat these cases on a case-by-case basis rather than standardizing it all.


Opposing this change given that the item actually does have its niche, and while that isn't within competitive ASB, it has a lot less to do with the ability to alter the weather and a lot more to do with the fact that having an extended duration of weather doesn't matter too much when the summoning Pokemon would last for a third of the duration or so, and for very little offensive benefit aside from if the Pokemon was like... Ninetales or something and needed the Sun to do massive damage, even though Fire Stone allows her to do the same thing. You could try arguing that it would bring in the advent of weather teams in ASB, but that also wouldn't be the case since the permanence would probably just wear off before you can get around to switching benefits around to the rest of the team.

======

Now for council duties:

Greninja + Rare Candy: Waiting 24h to see what discussion breaks out, then deciding the move.
Fluffy: Same as above
Weather Rocks: Same as above
Heal Block Update: Voting
Rock STAB Update: Voting
Curse Update: Straight to implementation

If people disagree with my decisions here, let me know.

Typing on a phone so bare with me.

Regarding the "redirection" point (which I have no idea of what it is supposed to mean) I fail to see the point. The interaction between rare candy/everstone and protean was felt by kecleon but the difference is that kecleon is not only atrocious before it (so it got boosted from horrible to good as opposed to good to god) but heavily prone to having the item knocked off, whereas greninja can abuse this misinteraction arguably to the fullest (better stats, all kinds of d/e and movepool to abuse of it)

We aren't treating with perfect spheres in a vaccuum. Kecleon wasnt nerfed before not because of it not being that bad, but because even that abuse or insane boost wasnt enough to turn kecleon into what greninja was. If we had made a consistency decision back then kecleon would be cut as well. It was a specific exception made by w/e reasons.

Did greninja get a "nerf"? Possibly. Same way michael jordan (or any 2m person bare with me again) gets shorter if you knock him down a centimeter (inches be damned). Doesnt make him suddenly average-high.


Again I dont particularly care about this as I dont think I will ever need to face a greninja again in the battles I am left with. But dismissing an argument because there is a second completely different mon that happens to have the same ability seems kinda silly if you ask me. Like comparing apples and pineapples. I mean they share the same name so they damn well must be treated the same, right?

 

[JJayyFeather]

Addressing Tailwind + Razor Wind, Tailwind would go up when Razor Wind strikes, since the only specified piece to occur in Charge there is the whirlwind from Razor Wind.

I like flavor and all, but I prefer balance much more than I prefer flavor, especially when priority becomes involved, and so I'd prefer to keep it completely regulated, and in the way that's least likely to be ridiculous.

======

To Frosty: my point was that your argument was centralized around the interaction being ridiculous rather than the actual strength of Greninja itself. Because if the interaction was the only problem, then Kecleon would've lost it too. Sorry to make it seem like I was attacking you, I was moreso just correcting a detail I noticed in your point to make sure everything is portrayed accurately.

 

[acidphoenix]

k i'm making a policy post

with regards to charge move + non-damage non-charge move: i really dont' care which way it ends up working in the end but i want it to be codified please and thank you ("user chooses" counts as codification yes)

fluffy: i have yet to hear good arguments against it, when every other ability in the game that follows its ingame effect has a number that is mostly consistent(sometimes, especially with x2 and x1/2 multipliers, we aren't consistent in what it translates to, but we are definitely consistent in that +3 is always 1.5, x2 bap or +5 is always x2, etc., correct me if i'm missing something and am wrong) and in fact am yet to hear any arguments against it except jayy whose arguments i actually find it completely reasonable to just completely ignore(sorry jayy but well...) so i fail to see why we can't just implement this

greninja: for the record i am by no means saying that greninja wouldn't be excellent(although i doubt it would be the top pokemon in the meta) but i definitely don't think it would be nerfworthy given the changes from them to now in the meta(most notably the improvement of player knowledge in how to sub against protean)

i don't actually care about having greninja unnerfed for the sake of greninja being better in particular, nor do i really care where greninja is, but to argue that it's a "fix to an interaction" is disingenious and you know it when kecleon wasn't nerfed explicitly because it was deemed not nerfworthy, and frankly, when we have a system that prides itself in not explicitly making modifications to mons when it can avoid it(with a weird exception in signature items i really don't know why these were deemed so different when making things like cloaks etc.(although not charged stone, charged stone is like it is because ASB worships the status quo far beyond any reasonable level)), it is ridiculous that a change that no longer is necessary(if you can legitimately argue that it is necessary still, or that it is enough on the edge to be worth having reservations, i will accept it, although i will fight your argument if i find flaw with it because i currently see no reason to agree) is applied just because "let's not give good mons buffs"

 

[JJayyFeather]

Piece by piece post:

Charge-Up Combos

I agree with Phoenix wholly that there does need to be a specified codification for this. I still do not like the option of allowing the user to decide, if nothing more than we even have it written that the user never gets to just explicitly choose the type of a combination, even with the moves having the same BAP, CT, and not being STAB. However, I will say that it is a slateable option, just because there isn't significant opposition to it, and it was suggested.

My 2c on this now is: I'd much rather it be specifically locked to either stage of the move, but I also do think its time to discuss the actual priority of these moves. I think that's more specifically the part that lends itself to being absurd, and I'd prefer to make sure that is what gets addressed (looking at you Solar Beam + Synthesis, and any upcoming variants that may involve Roost). For this, if and only if the status move occurring during the charge up stage is selected/possible, I propose that the priority of the charge phase of the move be reduced by 2. This way the combo can still be performed as envisioned, but without the slightly bullshit effect of suddenly just outhealing everything at +1 priority.

I'll get a slate up in 48h or after appropriate discussion occurs, whichever happens.

Greninja + Rare Candy

Sending this to voting since no significant posts have been made in a week, and I have no opinions left on the matter, and I assume the same for the public. This moves in 24h.

Should we restore Rare Candy's interaction to work the same as Everstone?
a) Yes
b) No

Fluffy

Sending to voting as all the points that can be made here are rather circular in nature. This moves in 24h.

Should Fluffy be changed to +5/-5?
a) Yes
b) No

Weather Rocks

Awaiting more discussion before any decisions can be made, including needing to know what duration Elevator Music's proposed effect would last for.

 

[epicdrill]

With regard to charge up combos, I think a couple things should happen:

1. Where the move combines (on damage or charge up) should be ref discretion (like it is now, but unless we specifically codify this I'm pretty sure people will keep complaining). We already leave combo legality in general to ref discretion, I think we can rely on refs to choose what makes thematic sense with regard to combos. I don't think it should be specifically codified otherwise, because there might be some that make sense combined in charge (Synthesis+Solar Beam) and others that make sense combined on damage (Tailwind+Razor Wind). I am also open to player chooses, as long as precedent for one does not set precedent for the other (meaning Synthesis+Solar Beam [combine on damage] being ruled illegal has no bearing on Synthesis+Solar Beam [combine on charge]).

2. I like the idea dogfish brought up of using the same priority rules as D/E moves. This will prevent the issue of priority healing that people hate so much, while still allowing combos that make thematic sense in the charge phase.

 

[Ooraloo]

Remove the

"The effects of this move can be avoided if the victim specifically makes an attempt to look away or close their eyes. This course of action carries a 15% flat Accuracy penalty, however."

from Hypnosis's description, like we did with the partial trapping moves?

 

[Birkal]

I think it is pretty ridiculous that Gym Leaders can quit their position and apply for a new gym to get that badge. Sure, there are counter-measures in place, but they obviously aren't working. Ever since Frosty started this, people have been abusing it. It's annoying from a bookkeeping sense in that gyms are turning over a lot quicker, but it also takes time and resources to prepare for another gym. I'd also argue that it is a lot easier battling for a gym than defending one that you've earned.

To alleviate this, award gym members that have been at it for a long time. Increase their counters, or give them a free choice of another gym's badge after X amount of wins. Because in the current situation, there is literally zero advantage for keeping a gym besides the prestige of it.