BH Balanced Hackmons

[Notgamingreally]

Going through the banlist and find several things that could be freed:
Liquid Ooze:
Banning things like this for competitivity may cause the loss of metagame popularity, which should be a bigger issue now.
Lumina Crash:
I was strongly opposed to its ban at that point and even more so after MMX's gone.
Photon Geyser:
MMX's gone *2.
Fillet Away:
Freeing this mid setup move may add some non-linearity to the meta. Tbh playing with multipliers all day can't be called fun.
Shedinja:
This may look crazy but Shedinja was banned in Gen 8 mainly because of the addition of Heavy-Duty-Boots. Now it has to choose from Heavy-Duty-Boots AND Covert Cloak which is a huge hold-back. Plus we have moldy Moves so it sometimes also needs Ability Shield.

General Thoughts:
1. Linear Format is far from fun. I knock out your 2x SpD defensive Pokemon with my offensive one because I have 1.5x1.5x=2.25x SpA which is bigger. If machines play Pokemon they should play exactly in this way. I don't mean it's bad or really unfun but a metagame shouldn't be fully filled with this.

2. We should allow a certain extent of "broken checks broken". All the things I proposed above are good additions to "unbalance" the meta. With Ooze, Lumina, Photon and FA defensive teams can't totally rely on the Furscales TH Sap boilerplate. And with Shedinja in, offensive teams should give up slots to deal with it, which somehow relieves the pressure on defensive teams.

3. For those who argue they are trying out fun sets and they work pretty well, here's now a big tour to prove that.

Ngl idk what you saying on liquid ooze running into random bullshit sapblockers on ladder is indefinitely more annoying then it not being here.
Lumina & photon could be retested however one likely excludes the other since the game of “does the malakazam beat my a shield or covert” likely isn’t that fun.
Fillet away is a multiplier idk what you talking abt, also still sounds lowkey annoying.
Might be lowkey cooking on shedinja (5 big attackers have a way around it, also some much needed ash ninja counterplay, fuck that frog) however it forces mostly bulky ghosts (and maybe flutter) to work around and doesn’t exist in a vacuum (I.e a shield likely pairs up with bounce and tidy mons, making it more stupid, covert also doesn’t likely stay in on salt/mortal/whatever)

Shedinja should be unbanned. There is no way it can deal with the onslaught that is Mortal Spin/Salt Cure/Stone Axe all at once. Boots/Cloak/Sash cannot cover everything. Even if unbanned, it's likely going to have low usage and viability.

Framing shed as a singular mon is weird. Theres fairly easy Ways to deal with mortal/salt and we have half decent removal and bouncers if it forgoes boots, even if big attackers have ways around it it’s probably still going to be a solid Pokémon with endeavor and countering non mold attackers.

Liquid Ooze itself should present trouble enough to FurScales teams. Counter-play options for FurScales is rather limited - for physical attackers especially who are hindered by Burning Bulwark/Strength Sap. Special Attackers, simultaneously, have more freedom than ever with Take Heart granting status immunity. The lack of physical viability and increased perks for special attackers encourages a one-sided metagame where only a single offensive/defensive stat matters. Even now, we are starting to see a decrease in the number of physically focused teams - physical attack is now much more reserved for pivot roles. In the long run, a special-only BH is not the way to go.

I would like sapblocking matchups to not be dumb prediction games and actually have some variance and thought put into it actually please and thank you, also physical attackers actually do in fact exist idk if you know that.

 

[Geneku2]

Going through the banlist and find several things that could be freed:

I agree with most of this. None of the item's listed above present anywhere close the the problem's of broken-ness of overcentralization of the meta as seen with Zacian-C and Substitute.

Lumina Crash and Photon Geyser may still be a problem given Alakazam-Mega and Necrozma-Ultra.

Shedinja should be unbanned. There is no way it can deal with the onslaught that is Mortal Spin/Salt Cure/Stone Axe all at once. Boots/Cloak/Sash cannot cover everything. Even if unbanned, it's likely going to have low usage and viability.

Liquid Ooze itself should present trouble enough to FurScales teams. Counter-play options for FurScales is rather limited - for physical attackers especially who are hindered by Burning Bulwark/Strength Sap. Special Attackers, simultaneously, have more freedom than ever with Take Heart granting status immunity. The lack of physical viability and increased perks for special attackers encourages a one-sided metagame where only a single offensive/defensive stat matters. Even now, we are starting to see a decrease in the number of physically focused teams - physical attack is now much more reserved for pivot roles. In the long run, a special-only BH is not the way to go.

What this dude yappin bout?

Council seems very closed to new ideas, don't reckon that's healthy.

 

[TTTech]

I agree with most of this. None of the item's listed above present anywhere close the the problem's of broken-ness of overcentralization of the meta as seen with Zacian-C and Substitute.

Lumina Crash and Photon Geyser may still be a problem given Alakazam-Mega and Necrozma-Ultra.

Shedinja should be unbanned. There is no way it can deal with the onslaught that is Mortal Spin/Salt Cure/Stone Axe all at once. Boots/Cloak/Sash cannot cover everything. Even if unbanned, it's likely going to have low usage and viability.

Liquid Ooze itself should present trouble enough to FurScales teams. Counter-play options for FurScales is rather limited - for physical attackers especially who are hindered by Burning Bulwark/Strength Sap. Special Attackers, simultaneously, have more freedom than ever with Take Heart granting status immunity. The lack of physical viability and increased perks for special attackers encourages a one-sided metagame where only a single offensive/defensive stat matters. Even now, we are starting to see a decrease in the number of physically focused teams - physical attack is now much more reserved for pivot roles. In the long run, a special-only BH is not the way to go.



Council seems very closed to new ideas, don't reckon that's healthy.

One council member doesn't speak for the whole council lil bro

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Are you tired of running fake Fur Coat mons that don't actually wall anything like Fraudino, Farceus and Questionabro? Feeling down that your supposed "Physical Wall" is getting 3HKO'd from neutral hits?

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino-Mega: 160-190 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Slowbro-Mega: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO

Well, it's about time you learn what a real Fur Coat mon looks like:

Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Aurora Veil
- Chilly Reception
- Strength Sap
- Ice Hammer

Let's be honest here. Can you really call a Pokemon that takes damage from physical attacks a physical wall? Nay. Look at what a real physical wall can do:

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg in Snow: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg with an ally's Aurora Veil: 60-72 (15.2 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 41-48 (10.4 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO

Finally, a real wall. Not some garbage <184 defense "physical wall" that has can't even avoid a 3HKO from a weak mon with <2000 attack like Mega Garchomp. A real Fur Coat mon does not rely on petty gimmicks like "type resistance". It simply stacks defense and shrugs off damage. Let's now observe the gap between Big Lugg and its competitors.

As you can clearly see, base Avalugg already has higher defense that the other "physical walls". Under prime conditions, Avalugg can reach over 3000 Defense. This is probably more defense than your entire team combined. You might be wondering how Avalugg can reach such high defences. It is because of mathematics. You see, Avalugg actually has a Phd in mathematics. That is why it chose to exist in the geometrically perfect form: a flat table. It symbolises the opposing Pokemon's heart monitor when they have to fight such a perfect Pokemon. The thing is, all of Avalugg's defense boosts are multiplicative. Fur Coat gives x2 defense. Snow gives x1.5 defense. Aurora Veil gives x2 defense. When you multiply 2x2x1.5, you get x6. Do you know what is equivalent to sextupling your defense? Removing the stat change cap and clicking Iron Defense 5 times.

That's all for this public service announcement. Expect the Avalugg population to sextuple after this post and expect a massive meta shift the likes no one have ever seen before after pathetic "physical attacker" finally meet a real physical wall.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

View attachment 631395View attachment 631393

Are you tired of running fake Fur Coat mons that don't actually wall anything like Fraudino, Farceus and Questionabro? Feeling down that your supposed "Physical Wall" is getting 3HKO'd from neutral hits?

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino-Mega: 160-190 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Fairy: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Slowbro-Mega: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO

Well, it's about time you learn what a real Fur Coat mon looks like:

Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Aurora Veil
- Chilly Reception
- Strength Sap
- Ice Hammer

Let's be honest here. Can you really call a Pokemon that takes damage from physical attacks a physical wall? Nay. Look at what a real physical wall can do:

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg in Snow: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg with an ally's Aurora Veil: 60-72 (15.2 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Avalugg in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 41-48 (10.4 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO

Finally, a real wall. Not some garbage <184 defense "physical wall" that has can't even avoid a 3HKO from a weak mon with <2000 attack like Mega Garchomp. A real Fur Coat mon does not rely on petty gimmicks like "type resistance". It simply stacks defense and shrugs off damage. Let's now observe the gap between Big Lugg and its competitors.

View attachment 631400

As you can clearly see, base Avalugg already has higher defense that the other "physical walls". Under prime conditions, Avalugg can reach over 3000 Defense. This is probably more defense than your entire team combined. You might be wondering how Avalugg can reach such high defences. It is because of mathematics. You see, Avalugg actually has a Phd in mathematics. That is why it chose to exist in the geometrically perfect form: a flat table. It symbolises the opposing Pokemon's heart monitor when they have to fight such a perfect Pokemon. The thing is, all of Avalugg's defense boosts are multiplicative. Fur Coat gives x2 defense. Snow gives x1.5 defense. Aurora Veil gives x2 defense. When you multiply 2x2x1.5, you get x6. Do you know what is equivalent to sextupling your defense? Removing the stat change cap and clicking Iron Defense 5 times.

That's all for this public service announcement. Expect the Avalugg population to sextuple after this post and expect a massive meta shift the likes no one have ever seen before after pathetic "physical attacker" finally meet a real physical wall.

avalugg fans when they learn special attacks exist and they spend 2 turns setting up for nothing:

ok but fr resources were updated and honestly yea i agree with the current vr

here's a set
ghost (Registeel) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Topsy-Turvy
- Recover
- Glare
- Parting Shot

 

[Geneku2]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the forums, I am here to complain.

The Endless Battle Clause is a rule in Pokemon Showdown that prevents battles from never ending. If the rules for an endless battle are detected, the system automatically declares an endless battle and forces a draw. The rules are as follows:

• Any Pokémon healed by a foe’s Heal Pulse or Floral Healing becomes stale.
• Any Pokémon affected by a foe’s Entrainment or Skill Swap becomes stale.
• Any Pokémon using (consuming) an acquired restorative berry (defined as a PP-restoring berry like Leppa Berry or an HP-restoring berry such as Sitrus Berry that the Pokemon did not start the battle with; for example, one obtained via Fling, Trick, Harvest, Recycle, Bug Bite, Pluck, Pickup, etc.) becomes stale.
• If at any point after the first 100 turns of battle all Pokémon on the field are stale, at least one team does not have the option of switching to a non-stale Pokémon, and at least one side's Pokémon's staleness has been inflicted by a Pokémon of the opposing side, the game ends. If only one side started the battle with the rudimentary means to perform restorative berry-cycling (defined to be a team containing a Pokémon holding a restorative berry as defined above and a Pokémon with Recycle, Harvest, or Pickup), it loses. Otherwise, the battle ends in a tie.
• The maximum length of any battle is 1000 turns, after which the game ends in a tie.

Staleness is defined as follows:

• A Pokemon meets one of the following conditions: whether or not the Pokemon has been healed via Heal Pulse or a berry it didn't initially have or had its ability changed via Entrainment or Skill Swap. - From Mathy

As G9BH is a metagame of very long and stalled battles, it is easy to unintentionally activate the endless battle clause via Entrainment, even when the battle has a definite end as seen in the following battle: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2125311602-f9fdiydceby4d10qylt0bu0itj0zuo2pw

I would like to propose an amendment to the Endless Battle Clause specifically for Balanced Hackmons as such to exclude the 4th point on the list. The Endless Battle Clause covers many cases in standard Pokemon battles; however, due to the nature of BH many of the elements that would cause endless battles in standard competitive play are simply everyday occurrences in BH due to the freedom of Pokemon, Ability and Move combinations.

In other words: skill issue, I should have bug-fixed all of the issues in Pokemon Showdown before playing.

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

Since there weren't any sample teams available at the moment, I'll pitch in one of my teams for consideration:

Team Name: Phantasmagoric Hallucinations

Synopsis: Phantasmagoric Hallucinations is a hyper offense built around overloading common answers to special attackers and Ghost types. The team features a variety of aggressive Pokemon to accomplish this like Gunk Shot No-Retreat Arceus-Ghost to blast through Mega Audino, Simple Moongeist Spectrier to tear right through Ice Scales and Blissey, Simple Flutter Mane to destroy Dark-Types and Final Gambit Lunala and Sturdy Zoroark-H to take just about anything out of commission.

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/ec6a120bd4fbe3ca

Usage Tips:
1. Typically the best lead is Lunala as it counters many common leads like Regenerator and Imposter Chansey
2. Spectrier and Arceus Ghost are the strongest Early and Mid game options to break through opposing teams and setup an endgame where Flutter Mane and and Zoro-H can dominate
3. If you ever find yourself backed into a corner or need to make a sack going Gholdengo and triggering Destiny Bond is generally the best option
4. Be mindful of hazards as the team uses multiple Sashes and Sturdy

Weaknesses: Stone Axe, Ho-Oh, Ash-Greninja, Random Fur Coat Dark Types, Priority, Speed Boost, and Population Bombers.

Effectiveness: Can easily rip through many teams as most teams are unprepared for the onslaught of powerful set-up sweepers. Defeated even teams with multiple counters to Ghost types like the Wandering Spirit Stall. It does tend to struggle a bit with Greninja and random ladder garbage like random Fake Out Extreme Speed users, however.

Additional Notes:
*Zoro-H is immune to almost all of the attacks of its teammates and thus is an excellent back up plan vs Imposter
* Lunala is EVED so it always outspeeds and kills off opposing Imposters
* Rapid Spin is used on Arceus Ghost to clear hazards for Zoro-H and the other Sash abusers
* Sometimes it's better to go for the Speed tie or Destiny Bond trade against Imposter instead of going to Zoro-H in order to preserve momentum

Replays showing how to correctly play the team (Unfortunately I don't have much time to ladder anymore so these will have to suffice. I'm very confident in the teams ability to reach top 10 or higher but again I don't have the time to take it there at the moment):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2128455915?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2127728419?p2