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I think volcarona needs too much support to instantly sweep an opposing team, the argument that with the right set it could beat blissey is true but pretty much every special attacker can beat blissey with the right set
Nobody's trying to say that volc could beat Blissey, that's one of the only mons that can reliably beat it. Clod on the other hand has to watch out for terea ground because with chip it can 2hit ko.
What? That's nowhere close to an issue. Of course you are forced to use HDB, but nobody minds doing that since you are getting so much in return by getting a hazard immunity. It's like saying Gliscor isn't good because you have to run toxic orb, it's not true.
Volcarona is not broken at all, its a good special attacking sweeper but has enough counterplay, and its definitely not restricting team building, sure you can't just have a team that gets cooked by volc after 1qd but you can argue the same for any other mon, take zamazenta for example, you can't just have a team with 5 physical attackers and a pult with will o wisp to check zamazenta cause then u insta lose to tera fire zama, doesn't mean you're restricting team building with that, you just need to build a team that has enough counterplay to relevant meta threads
But it is restricting team building. Yeah, maybe I just need to build a normal team and it will be good enough against volc, but it pulls out a suprise tera that I didn't expect and it sweeps my team. But then to account for said tera, I either have to make myself worse against other Volc tera's or dedicate even more resources to volc, making my team worse against the rest of the metagame. In a vacuum, you can deal with Volc, but in practice, you have to deal with every other sweepers which can overwhelm your team. Sure, some of the volc checks deal with other threats, but they overwhelm the checks such as Heatran, D-nite and glowking.
But it is restricting team building. Yeah, maybe I just need to build a normal team and it will be good enough against volc, but it pulls out a suprise tera that I didn't expect and it sweeps my team
These apply to other offensive threats in OU too. For example, kingambit has a variety of tera types and even more niche options, while roaring moon has been seen with tera fairy in high level play, and has many teras experimented. For example, you may have a team that gets swept by tera psychic volcarona, but you would take the loss to a rare set if it matches well into the rest of the metagame, and is well built, and it also applies to other mons like tera bug jaw lock moon.
Additionally, volcarona checks can easily be overwhelmed, but this is nothing special too. For example, a team with Roaring Moon, Kingambit and Hamurott can overwhelm a Zamazenta, but that does not mean that either of them are overly unreasonable to prepare for.
But then to account for said tera, I either have to make myself worse against other Volc tera's or dedicate even more resources to volc, making my team worse against the rest of the metagame.
I have mentioned before that it is easy to stack volcarona checks, like Skeledirge + Garganacl, both contribute towards volc and both pair well anyways, being a progress forcing defensive core. It does not make your team worse against the rest of the metagame.
These apply to other offensive threats in OU too. For example, kingambit has a variety of tera types and even more niche options, while roaring moon has been seen with tera fairy in high level play, and has many teras experimented. For example, you may have a team that gets swept by tera psychic volcarona, but you would take the loss to a rare set if it matches well into the rest of the metagame, and is well built, and it also applies to other mons like tera bug jaw lock moon.
Additionally, volcarona checks can easily be overwhelmed, but this is nothing special too. For example, a team with Roaring Moon, Kingambit and Hamurott can overwhelm a Zamazenta, but that does not mean that either of them are overly unreasonable to prepare for.
I have mentioned before that it is easy to stack volcarona checks, like Skeledirge + Garganacl, both contribute towards volc and both pair well anyways, being a progress forcing defensive core. It does not make your team worse against the rest of the metagame.
These apply to other offensive threats in OU too. For example, kingambit has a variety of tera types and even more niche options, while roaring moon has been seen with tera fairy in high level play, and has many teras experimented. For example, you may have a team that gets swept by tera psychic volcarona, but you would take the loss to a rare set if it matches well into the rest of the metagame, and is well built, and it also applies to other mons like tera bug jaw lock moon.
Additionally, volcarona checks can easily be overwhelmed, but this is nothing special too. For example, a team with Roaring Moon, Kingambit and Hamurott can overwhelm a Zamazenta, but that does not mean that either of them are overly unreasonable to prepare for.
I have mentioned before that it is easy to stack volcarona checks, like Skeledirge + Garganacl, both contribute towards volc and both pair well anyways, being a progress forcing defensive core. It does not make your team worse against the rest of the metagame.
But again, threat saturation. Sure, compared to other threats volc isn't too different, but it abuses matchup discrepancy a lot more through tera. Compared to other mons, volc can change its matchups a lot more. And just because other mons can do similar things does not make volc less broken. In fact, I'd say that's more reason to ban volc so said other threats are easier to deal with when the defensive checks are a lot less strained.
Tera bug jaw lock moon is a meme. Please don't use that set.
Overcompensating on volc does lead to worse matchups against other things. Both skeledirge and Garg are destroyed by waterpon, so by using said mons is making yourself against another threat.
Something I want to point out that doesn’t get enough discussion: Volcarona’s set is near impossible to decipher from team preview, which is a quality that is not shared by other Pokemon with its power level.
You can hypothesize “oh it’s probably not Modest Fire Blast 3A on a balance”, but aside from that, most things are fair game. We have seen mono-attacking WoW on offense or 3A Giga Drain on BO and so on. These variables cause for counterplay to vary a ton, but sometimes you don’t know until you’re already burnt by the wrong variant. Sometimes it can be a skill issue — I.e: if it clicks QD early game when you have a Primarina, you can probably guess it has a Tera to beat it or Giga Drain, but these cannot be discerned at preview alone, which puts a huge strain on game planning and can lead to necessary resources not being preserved for Volcarona or its teammate.
Many strong Pokemon you can decipher their set or a range of sets at team preview. Kyurem or Dragapult are frequently boots without removal unless on HO, for example. And when they’re Specs or other variants, you’ll find them supported accordingly. Sure, Pokemon like Gliscor has a ton of possibilities on most balances or GKing can run a plethora of different coverage/status options on some structures, but their immediate threat is nowhere near that of Volcarona. Your SDef Gliscor can chew an Ice Beam from GKing, Protect or double in a few times, and end up healthy again. Your Ghold can eat a Flamethrower from GKing and Recover or still be at serviceable health to force progress. But if Volcarona gets a QD and your first response doesn’t actually deter it, you could lose a resource needed for something else or you could outright lose the game depending on the circumstances. There’s just too much to account for with Volcarona right now.
As the suspect test begins to wind down, I would encourage everyone who laddered for reqs to consider posting an RMT of their laddering team!
As volcarona is a controversial pokemon that may be banned this is a unique place in the meta and I'm interested to see how people dealt with it on their teams (or took advantage of it).
As the suspect test begins to wind down, I would encourage everyone who laddered for reqs to consider posting an RMT of their laddering team!
As volcarona is a controversial pokemon that may be banned this is a unique place in the meta and I'm interested to see how people dealt with it on their teams (or took advantage of it).
personally i just changed my lando-t set from the commonly run ep/gknot/rocks/u-turn back to a physical eq/rock tomb/rocks/u-turn. the classic max hp max def lando spread lives any hit from volc at +1 and kills back with rock tomb, and even if volc teras and lives, you reduce its speed to avoid a complete sweep. band pult is also very good into volc, in general.
I want to start off by saying that if you like the current meta, stop reading. This post is not for you and will not convince you.
***
If you do not like the current meta, I can guess a few reasons why. Maybe you think one or two mons need to go, maybe you think more than that needs to be banned, or maybe you're more extreme like me and think action needs to be taken against tera. Either way, you're probably not happy with the number of threats burdening you in the teambuilder.
There is only one way to fix this, and that is to vote ban. I won't tell you to blindly vote ban on everything that gets suspected, but the number of threats you need to prepare for will never actually go down as the meta develops if left alone. It will stay the same or go higher. You may not agree with a volcarona suspect, and maybe you think waterpon or something else should've been looked at first. Regardless, we are here now to look at volcarona in the context of the current meta and nothing else.
"But kyurem/ival/enamorus/rillaboom/gholdengo/kingambit/etc will be too overbearing without volcarona!"
Irrelevant. We will address those mons when and if they become an issue.
"But volcarona's defensive utility/role compression is so nice to have around!"
Irrelevant. No amount of defensive utility justifies keeping a broken mon in the tier. See magearna, archaludon, watershifu, etc.
"But a volcarona ban will lead to a kyurem ban which will somehow lead to a zap/king/lu meta which I personally don't like!"
Irrelevant. Speculation aside, only the current meta is being considered when we vote on a suspect.
"I didn't lose to volcarona a single time as I was getting reqs!"
Irrelevant. Beating low/mid ladder players trying to use a suspect mon isn't proof or even a suggestion of anything.
Irrelevant arguments aside, let's start on the ones I disagree with: "Volcarona is a dead slot in so many matches! It needs to have the right Tera and use it to win!"
What kind of bad volcarona sets are you people using? I got reqs with volcarona just to feel the power again and god it's NEVER dead weight. You may have your bad matchups (which should be compensated for with proper teambuilding anyway) but even then you have the ability to fish for flame body and 1v1 some dangerous mons like gholdengo that volcarona should never be feeling useless. Even if you fight dnite, rmoon, and waterpons these mons all need to fear qd-->wisp big time.
Part of the discussion around Volcarona's Tera usage that feels frustrating is how it's being compared to pokemon that are not sweepers. Yes, Cinderace can click Tera Blast Ice to snipe a gliscor. Using tera to surprise kill one pokemon has been a largely accepted part of this game. What's NOT accepted is using tera to surprise kill an entire team. There is a clear and distinct difference between a darkrai clicking tera poison to surprise live moonblast and kill iron valiant and a volcarona clicking tera grass to surprise SET UP on primarina and kill 5 more pokemon. When you combine high base stats and QUIVER DANCE with Tera, you are looking at a pokemon which can snowball to victory in places where other healthy mons do not.
Volcarona is obviously not the only Tera set up sweeper in the tier, but unlike other borderline broken ones like Zamazenta, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon, all of the above have much more clearly defined counterplay. Kingambit cannot boost speed and will almost always be vulnerable to Encore, Trick, Sub, dark resists and faster wisp users. Zamazenta is overly reliant on a boosted Body Press and any ghost type or tera ghost will provide a roadblock. Roaring Moon almost always uses Tera Flying, meaning it maintains an ice weakness, and is very linear with knock/eq/acro and sometimes brick break or taunt/sub being the upper limit of its versatility. Going Tera Flying means you open yourself up to sucker punch and thunderclap, booster energy means your attack boost only works once and makes you vulnerable to sticky barb, etc etc. Volcarona unfortunately does not have any of these drawbacks and comparison to any other tera sweepers fall flat due to this.
Quiver Dance boosts speed, meaning that you're far less vulnerable to encore. You're not overly reliant on any single type of attack and have tons of flexibility with which type of tera blast or coverage fits a team. And your weaknesses can shift randomly in a way that is unpredictable to your opponent, not making any priority or even any type of attack a safe bet against you. Holding boots and using special attacks means that you can't be limited by intimidate, you avoid rocks/tspikes/spikes chip, and don't need to worry about sticky barb.
"The low usage and winrates prove that volcarona is actually fine"
I'm mostly responding to SupaGMoney's post here, it is the best DNB post in the thread. Funny enough, I remember reading a similar post arguing that chien pao should remain in the tier. Much like SupaG's post, 3d breaks down the suspect's performance in SPL replays. And much like I replied then, I will reply now: "We are never going to see 1 pokemon sweep half of all games in SPL, and we shouldn't be using the absence of that as evidence for anything."
The impact of clearly broken mons like chien pao on top tier tournaments like SPL will seem reasonable because that's the case for 99.9% of pokemon. You are simply not going to see any pokemon completely dominate the tour space ever because players at that level are hyper aware of all successful trends and aren't simply going to lie down and get run over, even if they are making unreasonable preparations in the process.
Not to mention mons like Kingambit and Gholdengo have higher usage, win rates, and similar/higher tera usage than Volcarona. If we are to use these statistics alone to decide what mons are banworthy, do we plan on suspecting and banning Kingambit and Gholdengo? I highly HIGHLY doubt that the players who could justify voting dnb on Volcarona would vote ban on Gholdengo (unless you're a stall main.)
Notice btw whenever Volcarona DOES tera, its winrates are unparalleled. That tells you that when Volcarona does get the right matchup, it is a consistent winner at the highest level. This is exactly what an unhealthy MU fisher looks like. A modest 54.55% winrate in SPL Overall but 100% winrates on when it Teras, on almost all of its Teras.
"Structural design can volcarona proof your team! Just use Gouging Fire+Weavile! Just use Dragonite+Skeledirge!"
I mean not only is this just not true, it's ignorant of the full set variety of volcarona. Let's start off with the simple set that this core is supposed to handle
Given HP/def evs live one HLR from tusk:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 72 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 277-327 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Speed evs hit 319 speed and outpace Kyurem
Rest in sp.atk
So let's say Volcarona gets a free QD, kills GF with tb ground (and thus remains at full health), weavile is coming in to RK:
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Ice Shard vs. 72 HP / 8 Def Tera Ground Volcarona: 232-276 (70.5 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
"But Srn, where is volcarona getting a totally free QD!"
Uh maybe against the weavile? What are you gonna do, stay in and knock to potentially die to a hard flamethrower? And then fail to rk with ice shard when it teras later bc you're dead? All the Volcarona player needs to do is position themselves 1v1 vs weavile. Even if you throw out weavile to potentially stop a volcarona sweep here, this is undoubtedly an exchange in favor of the volcarona player as weavile was likely a big threat to the offense team.
But this is also ignoring the possibility of bulky spreads that can eat an ice shard even better, Tera water blast sets which can eat flare blitz and still 2hko GF, and Tera Rock blast sets which can destroy GF and not be weak to ice shard. Tera Water/Rock sets destroy balloon Tera Fire Gambit as well, which has become a popular volcarona countermeasure (unfortunately fake). You can go into the meta thinking you're all set vs volcarona and still get rocked..
Dnite+Skeledirge btw have really mid synergy together but let's say you're gungho about not losing to volcarona. Flame+Tera Blast Water+Wisp can still cover both, and is a much better set than you think. 2 Attacks walled by dnite/rmoon+Wisp to hit dnite/rmoon is actually super strong, and being walled by water types isn't so bad when you are also a water type setting up on them+you can wisp the physical waters. Stop dicking around with predictable tera ground and you can absolutely find sets which work around the usual volcarona answers. I doubt most of my dear readers entertained the possibility of this set but volcarona is that versatile.
Small sidenote, lots of people think Knock Off is fool-proof counterplay to Volcarona when that's also shortsighted. It's great that you remove HDB, but not only do you need to get and keep up rocks for this to kick in, you also need to actually not get swept in this moment. What if you knock off volcarona but flame body procs as it sets up a QD? Then you swap out as it QDs again? And then it kills whatever you switched into with a +2 tera blast? Knocking volcarona off isn't gonna work if you lose before it's forced out.
"The default of this gen is matchup fishy, so volcarona is just the new normal"
Mostly referencing posts like Stad's here. This kind of defeatist attitude greatly saddens me. You don't have to accept that this tier is some matchup fish casino! That's why the community gets to vote at all, to mold the tier the way it wants to! Don't just stick to whatever side you think will win, please vote the way you want to. If you're frustrated with the state of SV OU, this is one of the few ways you will make any difference.
The burden volcarona places on the builder is too much, and even when stacking multiple checks you can lose to unpredictable and viable sets. We've gotten to the point where HO teams with Primarina+Roaring Moon+Scizor are being called weak to volcarona lmao. I am voting ban and I encourage all readers to do the same.
If you do not like the current meta, I can guess a few reasons why. Maybe you think one or two mons need to go, maybe you think more than that needs to be banned, or maybe you're more extreme like me and think action needs to be taken against tera. Either way, you're probably not happy with the number of threats burdening you in the teambuilder.
There is only one way to fix this, and that is to vote ban.
I don’t mean to nitpick or take this out of context because I know you provided many reasons why you find Volc broken aside from what I quoted but I’m genuinely curious whether or not this specific quote is a valid argument.
Taking the quoted portion alone, isn’t it basically the reverse argument of people who don’t want to ban Volc because they think it’s needed to check important threats?
Like in both cases, you’re not caring whether or not Volc is broken but basing your ban/not ban opinion on how you think it will affect the meta. But ik finch says over and over again that the point of the suspect is to vote purely on whether the thing is broken or not.
I bring this up cuz it seems like a lot of people want to ban volc because they’re frustrated with the meta and think that banning something will fix it, even if they don’t find volc particularly broken.
To be clear I’m not talking about people who want to ban volc because they think it’s broken in the sense that it constricts teambuilding too much. I’m talking about people who don’t like the meta and want to just ban anything to try and make teambuilding easier.
————————-
As for my own opinion, I vibe with what Ctann was saying earlier about Volc not really seeming broken in practice despite the arguments people make on paper. One reason for this is Tera is legitimately such a huge opportunity cost and volc is very tera dependent to sweep. I agree volc puts pressure on teambuilding but so does virtually everything and I wouldn’t even put it in my top 3 (wellspring gambit and pult in no particular order).
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is another one of those suspects that fails with a ~55% majority for ban. If this is the case I’d rather see the next suspect be one of the best mons in the tier instead of another ~A rank mon that looks scary on paper. It feels like we’ve been suspecting the latter of these recently which is in part why there haven’t been bans imo
I don’t mean to nitpick or take this out of context because I know you provided many reasons why you find Volc broken aside from what I quoted but I’m genuinely curious whether or not this specific quote is a valid argument.
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.
These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.
First day on showdown or smogon? Unless you're a mod motivated by the (tiny ass pixel imo) badges next to ur profile there's almost no one who will share actual strong teams willingly most of the time, so why would we be generous when the community is such? U might be able to dupe some actual kids into doing that though, if I was 14-15 again I might have fallen for this.
Was there an issue with what Duck Chris said? Maybe you are trying to be funny (I can't tell with blocks of texts sometimes). But a lot of your comments seem unfocused from the suspect and more focused at picking people apart. Like this at post 163 I believe:
"BTW this is rly irking me. So what if I'm annoying and it's "not okay" to you? Ur not a mod here, so stop acting like 1 by vigilante modding"
He wasn't annoyed for one and he isn't "vigilante modding". He was trying to help you not get banned by an actual mod. Trying to help.
I have been kind of annoyed with your seemingly negative approach to all of your posts. This, on top of them seeming low-effort (at least the writing). I don't know the policy very well and this thread is probably closing soon, but for future suspect threads and just general online advice: Keep the discussion on the matter at hand. And please don't post solely negatively or in reply to someone you don't agree with. This is a discussion thread not an argument thread.
Was there an issue with what Duck Chris said? Maybe you are trying to be funny (I can't tell with blocks of texts sometimes). But a lot of your comments seem unfocused from the suspect and more focused at picking people apart. Like this at post 163 I believe:
"BTW this is rly irking me. So what if I'm annoying and it's "not okay" to you? Ur not a mod here, so stop acting like 1 by vigilante modding"
He wasn't annoyed for one and he isn't "vigilante modding". He was trying to help you not get banned by an actual mod. Trying to help.
I have been kind of annoyed with your seemingly negative approach to all of your posts. This, on top of them seeming low-effort (at least the writing). I don't know the policy very well and this thread is probably closing soon, but for future suspect threads and just general online advice: Keep the discussion on the matter at hand. And please don't post solely negatively or in reply to someone you don't agree with. This is a discussion thread not an argument thread.
but whatever i said is true anyone thats not naive will know :) ban me from the site if unhappy
i left my opinion already:
- i dont think volc ALONE is that strong, picked off quite easily by physical priority and theyre very common in sv ou
- offensive mons in gen9 are way too fast (and strong), invalidating classic would be volcarona checks like scarf garchomp terrakion and gren with rock slide, not factoring in tera
- said mons caused volc to be so suffocating, by itself it is not that big of a deal
- u have people voting for these suspects to blame some of said mons are still in the tier all of them should go imo, u wouldnt see volc being a problem then, blame the council for deciding themselves to suspect volcarona over some of these other mons
- way bigger of a threat on paper than in practise
- but im voting ban anyways regardless even if i dont think volc by itself is broken, but caused by other way too fast and strong mons (i love booster energy) being in the tier
i already left this opinion down there, how much more effort u need? ur acting like im being paid to do this which im not. and u also chose not to read that post instead u go and selectively pick the post i was flaming people. no thanks, have done nothing wrong. u not happy is your problem, could care less
The burden volcarona places on the builder is too much, and even when stacking multiple checks you can lose to unpredictable and viable sets. We've gotten to the point where HO teams with Primarina+Roaring Moon+Scizor are being called weak to volcarona lmao. I am voting ban and I encourage all readers to do the same.
I mean, this makes complete sense to me. While a team like that is prepared for Volcarona, Volcarona and Volcarona, it's a bit weak to mons like Volcarona and especially Volcarona.
And while this sounds like (and, honestly, really is) an elaborate shitpost, it's also the reality of the situation: Getting rid of Volc isn't just getting rid of one potentially problematic pokemon. It's getting rid of several. And being able to do that much for the format with a single suspect seems like a no-brainer to me.
Hi.
I'll try to give my opinion about this dear volcarona.
Firstly, I understand why he is suspected, he is very central and strong of course. However, I don't think volcarona is banworthy, even with his versatily and the plethora of sets he can run. Volc is really reliant of 1 weapon, Quiver Dance. Without this, Volcarona is useless as an offensive Pokémon, so every good Pokémon with Unaware can stop him. Morever, he must run HDB, so Volc can lack reliable healing if he doesn't play Morning Sun, and playing moring Sun forces volc to give up coverage, but without morning sun, he is very easy to chip and take down with a priority, like King Sucker Punch. And all of u guys are going to say to me : and this fu**ing Terastal.
Yes of course, Terastal is a very useful and threatening weapon for our sunny butterfly, and depending of the tera type, your team can disappear in a single wingbeat. But depending of the Tera, this can have a very good or very bad matchup, we can understand the nickname Matchup Moth. For example, use a Ground Tera and you'll beat heatran, but you can't even tickle Dnite. Use a water Tera and you can beat GF, but gl to deafeat Raging Bolt.
In reality, we can say : oh this mon is broken he destroyed my entire team. But in the next match, volc is as useful as a Rubik's Cube against Frieza.
In conclusion : regardless of the vol set, there is at least 1 or 2 popular pokemon in your team which can prevent a volc sweep. If you oppo sweeps you, this is just because he is a special sweeper like Valiant, IronMoth or Enamorus, even if I admit he is a little stronger than them.
So, I encourage people voting DNB.
I would like to draw a comparison between volcarona and another mon, gen 7 shift gear Magearna to highlight why a sweeper having "no counters" does not necessarily make it banworthy. I acknowledge that Magearna has other sets that don't try to sweep in gen 7 like AV and heart swap, but I will focus the argument on the sweeping magearna sets since according to the tiering policy, the "utility" of the pokemon does not matter when considering whether a pokemon is broken or not.
Magearna in gen 7 and volcarona in gen 9 have many parallels. Take a look at the table below to see the many similarities between magearna in gen 7 and volc in gen 9.
Gen 7 Magearna
Gen 9 Volcarona
Beats any single check except Volc with no rocks up (ironically) with the right moves and items
Beats any single check except Blissey with the right moves and tera
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like Heatran + pex
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like skeledirge + dnite
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Not banned in gen 7 ou
???
Just because a pokemon does not have counters and can sweep at a moments notice does not mean it's broken. Magearna is not banned in gen 7 because it is required to have the perfect combination of moves and item to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Volcarona in gen 9 is very similar, requiring the perfect combination of moves and tera to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Of course, both mons can sweep with the right team support, but that's why they are both highly ranked sweepers in the their respective metagames.
Of course, if you think that magearna should have been banned in gen 7, I'm not going to convince you to vote no ban on volc. Different people can tolerate different amounts of unpredictability and volatility in a metagame, and if you prefer a non-volatile metagame, then feel free to vote ban on volc. However, if you believe that magearna is not broken in gen 7 and think that volcarona is banworthy in gen 9, I would implore you to compare the two and rethink your ban vote. I believe volcarona should not be banned.
Also if I get any replies saying anything about Magearna in gen 9 I'm gonna lose it.
I would like to draw a comparison between volcarona and another mon, gen 7 shift gear Magearna to highlight why a sweeper having "no counters" does not necessarily make it banworthy. I acknowledge that Magearna has other sets that don't try to sweep in gen 7 like AV and heart swap, but I will focus the argument on the sweeping magearna sets since according to the tiering policy, the "utility" of the pokemon does not matter when considering whether a pokemon is broken or not.
Magearna in gen 7 and volcarona in gen 9 have many parallels. Take a look at the table below to see the many similarities between magearna in gen 7 and volc in gen 9.
Gen 7 Magearna
Gen 9 Volcarona
Beats any single check except Volc with no rocks up (ironically) with the right moves and items
Beats any single check except Blissey with the right moves and tera
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like Heatran + pex
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like skeledirge + dnite
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Not banned in gen 7 ou
???
Just because a pokemon does not have counters and can sweep at a moments notice does not mean it's broken. Magearna is not banned in gen 7 because it is required to have the perfect combination of moves and item to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Volcarona in gen 9 is very similar, requiring the perfect combination of moves and tera to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Of course, both mons can sweep with the right team support, but that's why they are both highly ranked sweepers in the their respective metagames.
Of course, if you think that magearna should have been banned in gen 7, I'm not going to convince you to vote no ban on volc. Different people can tolerate different amounts of unpredictability and volatility in a metagame, and if you prefer a non-volatile metagame, then feel free to vote ban on volc. However, if you believe that magearna is not broken in gen 7 and think that volcarona is banworthy in gen 9, I would implore you to compare the two and rethink your ban vote. I believe volcarona should not be banned.
Also if I get any replies saying anything about Magearna in gen 9 I'm gonna lose it.
I mean, congrats, you've explained better than I'd do why Mag should have been banned in Gen 7.
Jokes aside, I would not formulate any argument, as convincing as you'd want to, on the basis of past tiering decisions. It was a different metagame, playerbase, council, and overall, time. While I can see some similar feats between these two, they are not, and will never be, the same profile and presence in a metagame.
You've drawn a nice picture of look alike between those two, but it's not a full one. Just stating that Magearna did provide fantastic defensive utility in every single type of teams, Stall/Fat/Balance/Offense included, already show how much of an '''''''healthier''''''' (saying this hurts me IRL) presence and utility Mag had onto Gen 7's metagame in comparison.
I would like to draw a comparison between volcarona and another mon, gen 7 shift gear Magearna to highlight why a sweeper having "no counters" does not necessarily make it banworthy. I acknowledge that Magearna has other sets that don't try to sweep in gen 7 like AV and heart swap, but I will focus the argument on the sweeping magearna sets since according to the tiering policy, the "utility" of the pokemon does not matter when considering whether a pokemon is broken or not.
Magearna in gen 7 and volcarona in gen 9 have many parallels. Take a look at the table below to see the many similarities between magearna in gen 7 and volc in gen 9.
Gen 7 Magearna
Gen 9 Volcarona
Beats any single check except Volc with no rocks up (ironically) with the right moves and items
Beats any single check except Blissey with the right moves and tera
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like Heatran + pex
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like skeledirge + dnite
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Not banned in gen 7 ou
???
Just because a pokemon does not have counters and can sweep at a moments notice does not mean it's broken. Magearna is not banned in gen 7 because it is required to have the perfect combination of moves and item to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Volcarona in gen 9 is very similar, requiring the perfect combination of moves and tera to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Of course, both mons can sweep with the right team support, but that's why they are both highly ranked sweepers in the their respective metagames.
Of course, if you think that magearna should have been banned in gen 7, I'm not going to convince you to vote no ban on volc. Different people can tolerate different amounts of unpredictability and volatility in a metagame, and if you prefer a non-volatile metagame, then feel free to vote ban on volc. However, if you believe that magearna is not broken in gen 7 and think that volcarona is banworthy in gen 9, I would implore you to compare the two and rethink your ban vote. I believe volcarona should not be banned.
Also if I get any replies saying anything about Magearna in gen 9 I'm gonna lose it.
This is a bad example and I can show why we should not use this logic. This example is that we should not ban arena trap because in Gen 3 it isn't banned and it does the same things in later gens. See the issue with this? You are using past precedence of something that is completely different and comparing it to something else on why something should be banned, its apples to oranges. You are making a metagame worse by trying to compare them when in fact, you are already using something that is controversial. As you have stated, megearna probably should have been banned but from what I remember the Gen 7 coucil was very against bans of any sorts, other things such as ash-greninja and tapu lele should probably have been banned.
In fact, the opposite should occur, bans of later gens should affect earlier gens. We saw this with arena trap in Gen 5 and 6 after it was banned in Gen 7, people realised that since arena trap was broken in Gen 7, it could potentially be broken in earlier gens and they looked at it and guess what? It was.
Both gen 7 and gen 9 are some of the most unique metagames in the history of the gen, with gen 7 having two generational gimmicks in Megas and Z moves while gen 9 OU has Tera + BE + the largest power creep. Comparing these gens to other gens is foolishness most of the time.
I also noticed that you purposely only focused on a specific kind of Magearna, which is highly insufficient since Magearna is one of the more versatile mons ever created with all the sets it can viably run. I remember running a Z-Heal Bell Trick Room set on Meagearna once. Gen 7 was wild. Anyways, the comparison is very forced. An actual teambuilder would need to account for the sweepers and everything else it runs.
Even though both Magearna and actually Volc were already banned in gen 9? And even though you brought up Meagearna to compare with in the first place? Fine. Then how about we bring up gen 8, where Magearna was also banned from OU? Gen 8 did away with Dynamax fairly quickly, so it winds up being a more neutral gen than gens 7 or 9 have been. We can find the ban reasoning for gen 8 Magearna here:
"Overall, Magearna is arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame; there may be some counterplay present, but it is very limited and varies greatly depending upon the set it is using. Magearna imposes restrictions on teambuilding due to how oppressive the Choice Specs set is and how versatile it is overall with the boosting variants. Even if you prepare for it sufficiently, there is a possibility that it will continue to give you issues due to how effective the Choice Specs variant is at forcing progress, wearing down defensive cores, and crippling opposing Pokemon. Magearna is a Pokemon that fits on to almost every archetype and oftentimes is able to carry its own weight and far more. The consequences of its unmatched strength and versatility on the metagame are undesirable, causing teambuilding to be very challenging to approach and gameplay to be very limited. We have elected to ban Magearna from SS OU for these reasons."
So the variation in sets contributed to Meagearna being put over the top of the ban threshold in gen 8. Variety is a problem when accounting for both these mons. But unlike with Volcarona, Magearna also has a wide variety of viable sets that aren't a Shift Gear sweeper or aren't even sweepers which made/makes it too difficult to prepare for. Regardless of what folks think of gen 9 Volc, comparing these two is apples to oranges in a gen comparison that is also apples to oranges.
but whatever i said is true anyone thats not naive will know :) ban me from the site if unhappy
i left my opinion already:
- i dont think volc ALONE is that strong, picked off quite easily by physical priority and theyre very common in sv ou
- offensive mons in gen9 are way too fast (and strong), invalidating classic would be volcarona checks like scarf garchomp terrakion and gren with rock slide, not factoring in tera
- said mons caused volc to be so suffocating, by itself it is not that big of a deal
- u have people voting for these suspects to blame some of said mons are still in the tier all of them should go imo, u wouldnt see volc being a problem then, blame the council for deciding themselves to suspect volcarona over some of these other mons
- way bigger of a threat on paper than in practise
- but im voting ban anyways regardless even if i dont think volc by itself is broken, but caused by other way too fast and strong mons (i love booster energy) being in the tier
i already left this opinion down there, how much more effort u need? ur acting like im being paid to do this which im not. and u also chose not to read that post instead u go and selectively pick the post i was flaming people. no thanks, have done nothing wrong. u not happy is your problem, could care less
Dude you can't just say "i was flaming people" and "have done nothing wrong" back to back
-
About Volc: I'll try to be short here since I haven't been playing much as of late so lots of grains of salt required:
Unless my memory fails me, the one constant among mons that have been banned due to Tera abusing is the fact that Tera increases volatility by flipping matchups, and swinging games like that with the mechanic is by design (regardless of if I think that is good or bad lol). The issue with mons like Volcarona is they can swing a game so hard with a single setup that everyone has to overprepare with multiple checks and we get in another Kingambit/Kyurem/RM/(...) situation in which every team has to have multiple answers to a single threat, and then you add the salt and pepper of threat saturation and here we are. Not cool, not cool
I would like to draw a comparison between volcarona and another mon, gen 7 shift gear Magearna to highlight why a sweeper having "no counters" does not necessarily make it banworthy. I acknowledge that Magearna has other sets that don't try to sweep in gen 7 like AV and heart swap, but I will focus the argument on the sweeping magearna sets since according to the tiering policy, the "utility" of the pokemon does not matter when considering whether a pokemon is broken or not.
Magearna in gen 7 and volcarona in gen 9 have many parallels. Take a look at the table below to see the many similarities between magearna in gen 7 and volc in gen 9.
Gen 7 Magearna
Gen 9 Volcarona
Beats any single check except Volc with no rocks up (ironically) with the right moves and items
Beats any single check except Blissey with the right moves and tera
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like Heatran + pex
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like skeledirge + dnite
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Not banned in gen 7 ou
???
Just because a pokemon does not have counters and can sweep at a moments notice does not mean it's broken. Magearna is not banned in gen 7 because it is required to have the perfect combination of moves and item to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Volcarona in gen 9 is very similar, requiring the perfect combination of moves and tera to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Of course, both mons can sweep with the right team support, but that's why they are both highly ranked sweepers in the their respective metagames.
Of course, if you think that magearna should have been banned in gen 7, I'm not going to convince you to vote no ban on volc. Different people can tolerate different amounts of unpredictability and volatility in a metagame, and if you prefer a non-volatile metagame, then feel free to vote ban on volc. However, if you believe that magearna is not broken in gen 7 and think that volcarona is banworthy in gen 9, I would implore you to compare the two and rethink your ban vote. I believe volcarona should not be banned.
Also if I get any replies saying anything about Magearna in gen 9 I'm gonna lose it.
first of all, you're equating "this was not banned" with "this is not banworthy". plenty of banworthy mons have overstayed their welcome in past gens, especially since the council's and playerbase's approach to the meta was far more conservative with bans before gen 8. if gen 7 had been tiered the way gen 9 has been, it's likely that magearna would have at least seen a suspect at some point. besides this, citing "it wasn't banned" as a reason for something not being banworthy is circular reasoning
I acknowledge that Magearna has other sets that don't try to sweep in gen 7 like AV and heart swap, but I will focus the argument on the sweeping magearna sets since according to the tiering policy, the "utility" of the pokemon does not matter when considering whether a pokemon is broken or not.
is not what that means. "defensive utility" is just a fancy way of saying "this mon can defensively check things". it shouldn't be used as an anti-ban argument because keeping a broken thing just to check something else is bad. that doesn't mean you get to say "these sets don't exist because they provide utility" when you evaluate the banworthiness of something
third, magearna has nothing to do with volc and this comparison only serves to distract from the here and now. we should be focusing on what volcarona is doing right now in this metagame instead of how it compares to what magearna did in a different meta seven years ago
and lastly, why should we trust someone with a magearna profile pic to give us an unbiased view of magearna?
I mean, congrats, you've explained better than I'd do why Mag should have been banned in Gen 7.
Jokes aside, I would not formulate any argument, as convincing as you'd want to, on the basis of past tiering decisions. It was a different metagame, playerbase, council, and overall, time. While I can see some similar feats between these two, they are not, and will never be, the same profile and presence in a metagame.
You've drawn a nice picture of look alike between those two, but it's not a full one. Just stating that Magearna did provide fantastic defensive utility in every single type of teams, Stall/Fat/Balance/Offense included, already show how much of an '''''''healthier''''''' (saying this hurts me IRL) presence and utility Mag had onto Gen 7's metagame in comparison.
Both gen 7 and gen 9 are some of the most unique metagames in the history of the gen, with gen 7 having two generational gimmicks in Megas and Z moves while gen 9 OU has Tera + BE + the largest power creep. Comparing these gens to other gens is foolishness most of the time.
I also noticed that you purposely only focused on a specific kind of Magearna, which is highly insufficient since Magearna is one of the more versatile mons ever created with all the sets it can viably run. I remember running a Z-Heal Bell Trick Room set on Meagearna once. Gen 7 was wild. Anyways, the comparison is very forced. An actual teambuilder would need to account for the sweepers and everything else it runs.
Even though both Magearna and actually Volc were already banned in gen 9? And even though you brought up Meagearna to compare with in the first place? Fine. Then how about we bring up gen 8, where Magearna was also banned from OU? Gen 8 did away with Dynamax fairly quickly, so it winds up being a more neutral gen than gens 7 or 9 have been. We can find the ban reasoning for gen 8 Magearna here:
"Overall, Magearna is arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame; there may be some counterplay present, but it is very limited and varies greatly depending upon the set it is using. Magearna imposes restrictions on teambuilding due to how oppressive the Choice Specs set is and how versatile it is overall with the boosting variants. Even if you prepare for it sufficiently, there is a possibility that it will continue to give you issues due to how effective the Choice Specs variant is at forcing progress, wearing down defensive cores, and crippling opposing Pokemon. Magearna is a Pokemon that fits on to almost every archetype and oftentimes is able to carry its own weight and far more. The consequences of its unmatched strength and versatility on the metagame are undesirable, causing teambuilding to be very challenging to approach and gameplay to be very limited. We have elected to ban Magearna from SS OU for these reasons."
So the variation in sets contributed to Meagearna being put over the top of the ban threshold in gen 8. Variety is a problem when accounting for both these mons. But unlike with Volcarona, Magearna also has a wide variety of viable sets that aren't a Shift Gear sweeper or aren't even sweepers which made/makes it too difficult to prepare for. Regardless of what folks think of gen 9 Volc, comparing these two is apples to oranges in a gen comparison that is also apples to oranges.
When I made the comparison between gen 9 volc and gen 7 mag, I do not mean to insinuate that their roles in the metagame are identical. I acknowledge that gen 7 mag is a much more diverse pokemon than gen 9 volc. The point that I was trying to get across is that just because a sweeper can beat all of its checks does not make it banworthy.
All players are allowed to have preferences on what they would like a metagame to be. Some people would sacrifice the option to use certain pokemon to make sure there is a surefire way to beat everything in the metagame, and that's a fine preference to have. Other players like me prefer for OU to be the most permissive tier possible after you ban all the box legends and otherwise broken/uncompetitive mons. I am willing to accept a bit of increased variance in allowing volcarona in the tier to increase the permissiveness of the tier.
Now back to the volc vs mag point. I would agree with all of you that volc and gen 7 mag are not the same pokemon, nor do they fill the same role in their respective metagames. The point I wanted to make was that "uncounterable" sweepers are not necessarily banworthy threats. Volcarona and shift gear magearna might not sweep in the exact same way, but the quality that they share is that they are sweepers with huge set diversity that can "pick and choose their counters". The similarity that I wanted to draw between gen 7 magearna and gen 9 volcarona was that even though they can in theory beat all of their checks with the right moveset, these mons were not overpowered in their respective metagames because the matchup had to be perfect for the mons to be broken.
Each of volcaronas sets in the current metagame, in my opinion, does not beat enough of the metagame for it to be uncompetitive enough to be banworthy. Each volcarona set only flips the matchup into a small subset of its counterplay. Tera grass beats primarina but loses to all of its original checks still, tera ground beats heatran and glowking (kinda) but still loses to ting lu, band pult, and dnite, tera dragon beats dragon types but still loses to skeledirge, ting-lu, etc, and the previous 3 teras still get revenged by sucker punch gambit. The same goes for volcarona's EV spread, but this one is even easier to play around, since it can be determined by attacking it or by seeing it attack you. Bulky volc has as better matchup into offense but loses to balance even harder, whereas the opposite is true for 252 Spa EVs. Every volcarona set allows you to win vs certain mons, but also allows you to lose to certain mons.
Last, I want to reemphasize this point as some people have said "well magearna should be banned in gen 7". Different players have different tolerances for variance in a metagame. One reason gen7 ou is one of my favorite metagames is due to the huge amount of diversity in both mons and set variety. This does come at the cost of a slightly more matchup fishy metagame, but despite the tier being more matchup oriented than lets say gen 8, I still enjoy gen 7 more. We are playing pokemon, which means accepting that a certain level of variance is OK. For some people, volc crosses that line. For me and many others, volcarona does not have enough good matchups for it to be banned.
Now back to the volc vs mag point. I would agree with all of you that volc and gen 7 mag are not the same pokemon, nor do they fill the same role in their respective metagames. The point I wanted to make was that "uncounterable" sweepers are not necessarily banworthy threats. Volcarona and shift gear magearna might not sweep in the exact same way, but the quality that they share is that they are sweepers with huge set diversity that can "pick and choose their counters". The similarity that I wanted to draw between gen 7 magearna and gen 9 volcarona was that even though they can in theory beat all of their checks with the right moveset, these mons were not overpowered in their respective metagames because the matchup had to be perfect for the mons to be broken.
Okay, so what about Gen 8 Magearna? That was banned right? You are maybe unintentionally cherrypicking one example of a mon which btw, was controversial which you have admitted, as your sole example why 'uncounterable' sweepers are not necessarily banworthy threats. This is again, under the assumption that Magearna was alright in the tier, which I find to be untrue. One example is not enough evidence on why something should not be banned. In fact, that same versatility was what got it banned in Gen 8.
So there is precedence for banning something because it has a large amount of versatility in it picking and choosing its counters.
Other players like me prefer for OU to be the most permissive tier possible after you ban all the box legends and otherwise broken/uncompetitive mons. I am willing to accept a bit of increased variance in allowing volcarona in the tier to increase the permissiveness of the tier.
The definition of permissiveness is 'Great or excessive freedom of behaviour'. Now, I'm assuming what you are meaning by this is that keeping volc in the tier allows for teams to utilise it because if it would be banned, an option for teambuilding would be gone. Now, this is technically true but I would say the 'permissiveness' of the tier would be much greater without volcarona. Without volc, teams would not have to overely on as many checks that they need for volc and can focus on the wider metagame, thus allowing for more creative strategies. This is what I was getting from this quote, but correct me if I am wrong.
Each of volcaronas sets in the current metagame, in my opinion, does not beat enough of the metagame for it to be uncompetitive enough to be banworthy. Each volcarona set only flips the matchup into a small subset of its counterplay. Tera grass beats primarina but loses to all of its original checks still, tera ground beats heatran and glowking (kinda) but still loses to ting lu, band pult, and dnite, tera dragon beats dragon types but still loses to skeledirge, ting-lu, etc, and the previous 3 teras still get revenged by sucker punch gambit. The same goes for volcarona's EV spread, but this one is even easier to play around, since it can be determined by attacking it or by seeing it attack you. Bulky volc has as better matchup into offense but loses to balance even harder, whereas the opposite is true for 252 Spa EVs. Every volcarona set allows you to win vs certain mons, but also allows you to lose to certain mons.
People say 'oh, x set of volcarona can't beat y and z mon'. Yes, it can't do that but support from teammates can do that. Let's look at the tera grass varient. It beats bulky waters, garg and raging bolt (cause of the electric resistance and increasing its sp.defense). Now, it doesn't beat fire types or dragon types. But what beats both? Primarina. Slap a primarina onto that team and you are all good. What about the tera ground variant? It's a lot more common, so its fairer. It doesn't beat bulky water types and dragon types. Well, a raging bolt beats most bulky waters and a iron valiant with tera steel can beat most, if not all, dragon types. Of course, it isn't as simple as that, but the team is put under a lot of pressure. This means they have to overcompensate for volc by loading up on volcarona checks, making them worse against other threats. Yes, the mons can do well against other threats, but against a team that has 4-5 overpowered threats, they get overwhelmed due to needing to check everything and eventually overwhelmed. Volc is the mon that needs the most diverse amount of checks and thus, is constraining the metagame the most.
I would like to draw a comparison between volcarona and another mon, gen 7 shift gear Magearna to highlight why a sweeper having "no counters" does not necessarily make it banworthy. I acknowledge that Magearna has other sets that don't try to sweep in gen 7 like AV and heart swap, but I will focus the argument on the sweeping magearna sets since according to the tiering policy, the "utility" of the pokemon does not matter when considering whether a pokemon is broken or not.
Magearna in gen 7 and volcarona in gen 9 have many parallels. Take a look at the table below to see the many similarities between magearna in gen 7 and volc in gen 9.
Gen 7 Magearna
Gen 9 Volcarona
Beats any single check except Volc with no rocks up (ironically) with the right moves and items
Beats any single check except Blissey with the right moves and tera
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Many setup opportunities due to good stats + many resistances
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Has a lot of defensive utility on HO
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like Heatran + pex
Can be checked most of the time with 2 mon cores like skeledirge + dnite
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Offensive teams can pressure it by hitting it very hard
Not banned in gen 7 ou
???
Just because a pokemon does not have counters and can sweep at a moments notice does not mean it's broken. Magearna is not banned in gen 7 because it is required to have the perfect combination of moves and item to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Volcarona in gen 9 is very similar, requiring the perfect combination of moves and tera to sweep your team in an unbalanced way. Of course, both mons can sweep with the right team support, but that's why they are both highly ranked sweepers in the their respective metagames.
Of course, if you think that magearna should have been banned in gen 7, I'm not going to convince you to vote no ban on volc. Different people can tolerate different amounts of unpredictability and volatility in a metagame, and if you prefer a non-volatile metagame, then feel free to vote ban on volc. However, if you believe that magearna is not broken in gen 7 and think that volcarona is banworthy in gen 9, I would implore you to compare the two and rethink your ban vote. I believe volcarona should not be banned.
Also if I get any replies saying anything about Magearna in gen 9 I'm gonna lose it.
This person has a very good point, I agree with most of this but I side with the ban side. Once again...
Just imagine this metagame without all these fast offensive shitters on gen9 running around, maybe I wasn't clear which mons so...
Roaring moon, iron valiant, iron boulder
Then we have special mention to....
Raging bolt, ogerpon Wellspring
Less so ogerpon but ull see lots of teams just fold (lose 2 sometimes 3 pokemon) to raging bolt if played properly which I'm convinced most people aren't doing it right.
If you weren't spending your time trying to have a gameplan vs these things, esp with fast booster energy mons invalidating Possibility of physical scarfer above speed tier of volcarona (eg. Terrakion, garchomp, gren)...
You would most certainly find volc to be checked relatively easily with sucker punch from gambit espeed with dragonite which are so common and even grass glide and ice shard esp with tera ground and dragon combined with some chip damage. Scarfer counterplay is also possible.
Because multiple of these mons are still in ou, people have their hands tied building teams with counterplay to all these listed and don't have enough resource left for volcarona with their 6 slots and it causes volc to be so suffocating to play against.
Not questioning why volcarona was chosen for suspect over some of these other things, if volc goes, that is already 1 less threat to account for. Then maybe people can start suspecting for other threats I have listed to make it a step to an actual metagame people can enjoy instead of everyone saying I hate this meta cos there's too many threats running around and it's too matchup fishy.
Volcarona is literally 1 of these mons that makes it so newer(returning) players like me who have been back for 2 months, aside from lack of replays from high level gameplay and general unhelpfulness of people when asked genuine questions like what to account for in the builder when building a gen9ou team, that I still only know how to build and run ho or bo. Did the best I could with minimal help being offered and also not gimping myself vs the numerous offensive teams on ladder. If they plan to overwhelm me w all these new mons running around and a volcarona, I'll be the one to overwhelm them first instead before they can do that with my own ho. :) Learning to build balance or stall is hard is just too hard with lack of resources and help provided and also too many threats including the one being suspect tested now volcarona.
PLEASE VOTE BAN. Volc can always be retested in future when hopefully more threats are banned and its deemed another shot at ou.
Comparing Volcarona to any other Pokemon (be it a prior OU mainstay or Uber) is an act in futility. Volcaona is nothing like SM Magearna or any other Pokemon to touch OU. It posesses a unique profile and I think arguing otherwise is misinformed or overly generalizing things. I do not think any attention should be devoted to that narrative from flyingtaco above. You could "zoom out" and vaguely compare any win condition if you really wanted to, but it does nothing to justify taking a stance on Volcarona on either end.
Ok so I managed to get reqs and I'll be voting ban because this mon is extremely cancerous for the game (I've been waiting for this suspect since DLC2 started, but it's finally time). Perhaps the most underrated set that I see not many people talk about is sub tera ground, which straight up denies 3 of its otherwise best checks (heatran, garg and slowking galar). This would be fine if it didn't get also a +1 boost to spa, spdf and speed, and a move to boost it's spa further (at chance). But it's fine, you have dnite and gambit unless whoops, will o wisp defensive volc, or get burnt by perhaps one of the least competitive abilities around alongside static. Or you have ting lu, which takes half from bug buzz and has to whirlwind, or maybe skeledirge who (if is tera water, which is a popular set, or tera ground) is forced to tera and has to be spdf, or prima who loses the 1v1 if tera grass. Literally the only thing that not loses to one of it's sets is blissey, which is restricted to one archetype and one only. So the only thing you can do is either, stack a bunch of volc checks on your team, some of which would not have the synergy you would want on an specific build, or pray that you don't find the exact set your spdf mons loses to. Add that to the amount of RNG that goes when playing against it (flame body, fiery dance boost), and it becomes clear that the mon is uncompetitive. "Ohh but then kyurem is getting banned" good, kyurem is also broken and it deserves to be suspected again.
