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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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I've submitted by far the most aggressive voting to this date. I actually enjoy the meta quite a bit rn and as a dedicated balance player I'm thrilled to see it at the top again after a rather difficult year. Still I can see why things would need to change and why others might not enjoy Gliscor mirror matchups.
5/5,The mon that single handedly pushed balance into S rank. It is to meta warping rn though. It forces everything to run boots. Everyone is running the same Tusk set. Mons like Zamazenta are forced to run Ice Fang. We've seen stuff such as Sub Torn-T pop up which is just ridiculous honestly. Its also murdered Ting Lu and is pushing a lot of more interesting or niche picks into unviability cause they cant get past this thing.
5/5, Contrary to popular opinion I dont think this mon can be blamed for all our hazard issues as quite franky it's really only blocking Corvi (and I suppose Mandi as well now). However it's clearly not helping the matter either and the mere fact that Corvi could reliably remove hazards would make the whole playstyle less popular already. The main problem with this mon is thats its also just hella good. It has to many sets all of which are good. It makes fantastic use of Tera to turn would be counters such as Ting Lu into set up fodder and to prevent RKing. Its a huge pita for balance to deal with and the drop in usage for Samurott has only helped it. It provides a ton of defensive application via its typing and ability alone even if you run an offensive set (eg vs Amoongus, Sneasler or Hawlucha). On the flip side defensive sets also provide a ton of offensive pressure and are actually quite underrated. I've been running a defensive spread with twave, hex, recover and np and its been serving as a wall, status spreader, wallbreaker, late game wincon and emergency stop to dangerous sweepers.
3/5, the only set that really looked over the top so far in my humble opinion was tera poison with tail glow and acid armor in sticky webs. We definitely need to revisit this after banning Waterpon but it seems fine for now although the diversity of sets and potential coverage make counterplay somewhat inconsistent. It also appreciated the RM ban. I'm definitely keeping an open mind regarding this but I havent had much issues with it yet.
5/5, I'm tired of this thing. As long as this is on your opponents team the game could always slip away from you at the last moment because you guessed its set wrong and lost a mindgame. Sometimes I make intentionally bad plays just to bait my opponent to use his tera on something else. Maybe its not outright broken but it requires to much prep in the builder and leads to unhealthy game situations in my opinion because you do not know what you need to preserve to deal with it.
4/5, the only thing holding it back from taking over the meta is the prevalence of hazards which we happen to be trying to tackle right now. If we succeed at that we definitely need to take a long hard look at this thing. Even still this severely lacks reliable counterplay aside from very specific defensive teras, amoongus (ew) and just having a team thats offensive enough that it doesnt need a reliable switchin to this. Between knock off and rocks this thing already beats a lot of its supposedly would be answers in the long run.
2/5, the only set thats worth suspecting is unburden. It would be perfectly fine if it wasnt for Tera of course. Admittedly between Tera Flying acrobatic and Tera Ghost shadow claw it can be a bit of a pain in the ass to deal with this. The Rillaboom buff was obviously also great news for it - giving it 50% defense increase and removing its EQ weakness. Again I'll keep an open mind regarding this but it seems the least problematic of the bunch and I've been able to play around it quite consistently so far since its reliance on Terrain makes it act in very predictable and sometimes exploitable ways. It also doesnt love how Gliscor bullied everyone into running ice spinner.
Tera Blast: 1/5, I'd really rather not half ass our Tera suspect with this. I really dont think Tera Blast is the problem. Who even uses this move rn? The biggest offender is how it can completly flip the defensive type chart of a set up sweeper thus allowing it to get free boosts in as well as providing an additional stab to blast past would be walls however this is very often done without even relying on TB such as with Sneasler, Moon or IVal who are jsut taking the 50% boost on Acrobatic / Shadow Claw / Lash Out / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt etc.
Banning Tera Blast doesnt solve the underlying issue in my opinion and I dont see a big difference if a potential sweeper has a weak and without tera unviable coverage option in shadow claw, fire punch etc. or whether its reliant on tera blast.
5/5,The mon that single handedly pushed balance into S rank. It is to meta warping rn though. It forces everything to run boots. Everyone is running the same Tusk set. Mons like Zamazenta are forced to run Ice Fang. We've seen stuff such as Sub Torn-T pop up which is just ridiculous honestly. Its also murdered Ting Lu and is pushing a lot of more interesting or niche picks into unviability cause they cant get past this thing. 5/5, Contrary to popular opinion I dont think this mon can be blamed for all our hazard issues as quite franky it's really only blocking Corvi (and I suppose Mandi as well now). However it's clearly not helping the matter either and the mere fact that Corvi could reliably remove hazards would make the whole playstyle less popular already. The main problem with this mon is thats its also just hella good. It has to many sets all of which are good. It makes fantastic use of Tera to turn would be counters such as Ting Lu into set up fodder and to prevent RKing. Its a huge pita for balance to deal with and the drop in usage for Samurott has only helped it. It provides a ton of defensive application via its typing and ability alone even if you run an offensive set (eg vs Amoongus, Sneasler or Hawlucha). On the flip side defensive sets also provide a ton of offensive pressure and are actually quite underrated. I've been running a defensive spread with twave, hex, recover and np and its been serving as a wall, status spreader, wallbreaker, late game wincon and emergency stop to dangerous sweepers. 3/5, the only set that really looked over the top so far in my humble opinion was tera poison with tail glow and acid armor in sticky webs. We definitely need to revisit this after banning Waterpon but it seems fine for now although the diversity of sets and potential coverage make counterplay somewhat inconsistent. It also appreciated the RM ban. I'm definitely keeping an open mind regarding this but I havent had much issues with it yet. 5/5, I'm tired of this thing. As long as this is on your opponents team the game could always slip away from you at the last moment because you guessed its set wrong and lost a mindgame. Sometimes I make intentionally bad plays just to bait my opponent to use his tera on something else. Maybe its not outright broken but it requires to much prep in the builder and leads to unhealthy game situations in my opinion because you do not know what you need to preserve to deal with it. 4/5, the only thing holding it back from taking over the meta is the prevalence of hazards which we happen to be trying to tackle right now. If we succeed at that we definitely need to take a long hard look at this thing. Even still this severely lacks reliable counterplay aside from very specific defensive teras, amoongus (ew) and just having a team thats offensive enough that it doesnt need a reliable switchin to this. Between knock off and rocks this thing already beats a lot of its supposedly would be answers in the long run. 2/5, the only set thats worth suspecting is unburden. It would be perfectly fine if it wasnt for Tera of course. Admittedly between Tera Flying acrobatic and Tera Ghost shadow claw it can be a bit of a pain in the ass to deal with this. The Rillaboom buff was obviously also great news for it - giving it 50% defense increase and removing its EQ weakness. Again I'll keep an open mind regarding this but it seems the least problematic of the bunch and I've been able to play around it quite consistently so far since its reliance on Terrain makes it act in very predictable and sometimes exploitable ways. It also doesnt love how Gliscor bullied everyone into running ice spinner.Tera Blast: 1/5, I'd really rather not half ass our Tera suspect with this. I really dont think Tera Blast is the problem. Who even uses this move rn? The biggest offender is how it can completly flip the defensive type chart of a set up sweeper thus allowing it to get free boosts in as well as providing an additional stab to blast past would be walls however this is very often done without even relying on TB such as with Sneasler, Moon or IVal who are jsut taking the 50% boost on Acrobatic / Shadow Claw / Lash Out / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt etc.
Banning Tera Blast doesnt solve the underlying issue in my opinion and I dont see a big difference if a potential sweeper has a weak and without tera unviable coverage option in shadow claw, fire punch etc. or whether its reliant on tera blast.
i just wanted to ask, what is it that makes tera preview not a worthwhile option? i've seen a few people bring it up and then a few people say it wouldn't help and i just wanted to ask why? i'm fine with tera blast going if it means keeping the mechanic because i think it makes this gen interesting and i feel like we're just gonna end up with another gen 8 if we ban it, but i'm curious why tera preview isn't the popular choice as that would be my first pick?
like the biggest argument i've seen from tera is that its too unpredictable and you might get sniped by a tera type you didn't see coming and get swept, but the way i see it being able to know all the tera types of all your opponents gives you the information you need to predict when your opponent is going to use their tera to try and play around it, all the while being more cautious about when to pop your own tera with the knowledge your opponent knows what you're going to tera into?
so i'm genuinely curious about what it is about tera preview that i'm missing and why tera blast is the most favored option currently, any explanations would be appreciated
also in regards to the survey, i'm in favor of more quickbans to get the super broken stuff out, i'd say quickban ghold/gliscor/gambit then a manaphy or waterpon suspect, sneasler is the least threatening thing on the survey currently but should not be underlooked and should probably be looked into further down the line, it's not a priority at least though
like the biggest argument i've seen from tera is that its too unpredictable and you might get sniped by a tera type you didn't see coming and get swept, but the way i see it being able to know all the tera types of all your opponents gives you the information you need to predict when your opponent is going to use their tera to try and play around it, all the while being more cautious about when to pop your own tera with the knowledge your opponent knows what you're going to tera into?
so i'm genuinely curious about what it is about tera preview that i'm missing and why tera blast is the most favored option currently, any explanations would be appreciated
also in regards to the survey, i'm in favor of more quickbans to get the super broken stuff out, i'd say quickban ghold/gliscor/gambit then a manaphy or waterpon suspect, sneasler is the least threatening thing on the survey currently but should not be underlooked and should probably be looked into further down the line, it's not a priority at least though
I think it's less so that people want tera blast banned, it was just on the survey, and more that due to the constricting nature of tera, people want a full on ban. I personally am of the opinion that a tera preview should be implemented and if that doesn't work, then a tera ban, but I guess people's experience with tera has been so bad that the want to get rid of it entirely and not let it ruin the metagame any longer.
Enjoyable: 5 - Again, highly subjective. But tired of Hazards.
Balanced: 5 - Deserves higher given all we've done, but can't give it higher when the entire game is lopsided into two playstyles.
Tiering: 6 - I like conservative positions in terms of bans and would love it to stay as it is today, but times are dire and this gen demands more aggresive action. Still not happy on the idea of aggresive bans in general, but if there's a time for them, it's now.
Gliscor: 5
Gholdengo: 5
Arguments have been made for over a month on how these things are problematic and I agree with almost all of those arguments. I disagree with the people that think that only either of them is bad. I'm on the "Gholdengo is the real problem" side, sure, but I don't care about my own side at this point; I just want them gone.
Manaphy: 2
Not seeing this as a problem. Takes too long to place itself in a dangerous position, is vulnerable to Encore which is everywhere this gen due to how many mons like to Set-up nowadays. I'm guessing it's a problem for slower and more defensive teams, maybe? But still don't think it's a problem for aggresive, bulky offensive and balance teams alike that have any way of applying offensive pressure or just fast Encore/Taunt and without setup, it's plain weak.
Waterpon: 3
I said it before and I'll say it again: Waterpon is where I draw my personal line of what is broken and what isn't in this meta and Gen 9 OU in general. She's right on said line, and for me, that's a no-ban. But would completely understand a suspect; in fact, it's hard to argue against it. Just not a ban, and definetely not before the scorpion-and-cheese in the room.
Sneasler: 4
Will become hell without Gholdengo to counter most of its sets without having to worry about Dire Claw, which is the real problem here.
Honestly, I'd like for the council to consider being more willing to ban exclusive moves on mons, specially since that seems to be the design direction that GF is going for. Mons that wouldn't be broken outside of some exclusive or nigh-exclusive move is something I think will become much more common in future generations and Sneasler may be a good point to reconsider.
But if Dire Claw doesn't go, then Sneasler does.
Kingambit: 3
Maybe it's habit, maybe it's over-preparation, but I don't think this thing is ban-worthy broken at this point. So many options to burn it, so many encore users to lock-it into SD or Sucker Punch. And so shallow movepool. The only unpredictable thing about it is Tera, and I don't think defensive Tera really changes much nowadays as again, attacking into it is rarely the best way to face it. And "burn" and "encore" are things that also work on Waterpon, or Sneasler, or most of our offensive mons. Wouldn't be against a re-suspect in the future, but for me, it's a low priority and could even wait until we decide Tera's fate.
Tera Blast: 1
Don't think this belongs anywhere right now. Seems to be a water-downed version of suspecting Tera, and not even it's most troublesome feature. Tera Blast forcing it's bearer to effectively be running 3 Moves unless it Teras is a huge cost that kind of demands the team to always tera the same mon, which greatly hurts its versatility. You don't want to run multiple mons with it on the same team cause, again, any mon with Tera Blast that doesn't Tera is just running one less move, and few mons can afford that.
Even outside of theoretics, how many mons commonly use Tera Blast in the current meta? Iron Moth relatively often, Kingambit very rarely... and then who? Thundurus-T? DD Dragapult? I really don't see a reason to talk about Tera Blast unless we're talking about Tera as a whole, which as the survey itself states, is still a ways ahead.
Other Things: Booster Energy
Don't think it's a priority by any means, but I do find interesting the idea of banning Booster Energy. It was not conclusive, but relevant for Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle; it was very important for Roaring Moon; and it's a staple for Iron Valiant and Iron Moth, the former being seen as "borderline problematic" since the beginning of the generation and the latter being refered to as "barely fine" repeatedly in the last weeks.
I don't think lackluster mons like Brute Bonnet, Iron Thorn or Iron Jugulis not being broken with it is an argument in its favor, or at least not a strong one. GF could make an item that increased Attack and Speed of a mon by 400% with no drawbacks and Shuckle and Chansey wouldn't be broken by it. Booster Energy adds a very significant "extra oomph" to a, in my opinion, sufficiently large amount of mons to be a problem in itself. I also have the personal experience of playing in Monotype, where Booster Energy is banned and even Flutter Mane feels manageable (granted, they also don't have Tera, and is just an overall different meta, but it's not entirely irrelevant). I think it would be good for the tier, and worth a debate, if not now, sometime in the future.
Balanced: 5 - Deserves higher given all we've done, but can't give it higher when the entire game is lopsided into two playstyles.
Tiering: 6 - I like conservative positions in terms of bans and would love it to stay as it is today, but times are dire and this gen demands more aggresive action. Still not happy on the idea of aggresive bans in general, but if there's a time for them, it's now.
Gliscor: 5
Gholdengo: 5
Arguments have been made for over a month on how these things are problematic and I agree with almost all of those arguments. I disagree with the people that think that only either of them is bad. I'm on the "Gholdengo is the real problem" side, sure, but I don't care about my own side at this point; I just want them gone.
Manaphy: 2
Not seeing this as a problem. Takes too long to place itself in a dangerous position, is vulnerable to Encore which is everywhere this gen due to how many mons like to Set-up nowadays. I'm guessing it's a problem for slower and more defensive teams, maybe? But still don't think it's a problem for aggresive, bulky offensive and balance teams alike that have any way of applying offensive pressure or just fast Encore/Taunt and without setup, it's plain weak.
Waterpon: 3
I said it before and I'll say it again: Waterpon is where I draw my personal line of what is broken and what isn't in this meta and Gen 9 OU in general. She's right on said line, and for me, that's a no-ban. But would completely understand a suspect; in fact, it's hard to argue against it. Just not a ban, and definetely not before the scorpion-and-cheese in the room.
Sneasler: 4
Will become hell without Gholdengo to counter most of its sets without having to worry about Dire Claw, which is the real problem here.
Honestly, I'd like for the council to consider being more willing to ban exclusive moves on mons, specially since that seems to be the design direction that GF is going for. Mons that wouldn't be broken outside of some exclusive or nigh-exclusive move is something I think will become much more common in future generations and Sneasler may be a good point to reconsider.
But if Dire Claw doesn't go, then Sneasler does.
Kingambit: 3
Maybe it's habit, maybe it's over-preparation, but I don't think this thing is ban-worthy broken at this point. So many options to burn it, so many encore users to lock-it into SD or Sucker Punch. And so shallow movepool. The only unpredictable thing about it is Tera, and I don't think defensive Tera really changes much nowadays as again, attacking into it is rarely the best way to face it. And "burn" and "encore" are things that also work on Waterpon, or Sneasler, or most of our offensive mons. Wouldn't be against a re-suspect in the future, but for me, it's a low priority and could even wait until we decide Tera's fate.
Tera Blast: 1
Don't think this belongs anywhere right now. Seems to be a water-downed version of suspecting Tera, and not even it's most troublesome feature. Tera Blast forcing it's bearer to effectively be running 3 Moves unless it Teras is a huge cost that kind of demands the team to always tera the same mon, which greatly hurts its versatility. You don't want to run multiple mons with it on the same team cause, again, any mon with Tera Blast that doesn't Tera is just running one less move, and few mons can afford that.
Even outside of theoretics, how many mons commonly use Tera Blast in the current meta? Iron Moth relatively often, Kingambit very rarely... and then who? Thundurus-T? DD Dragapult? I really don't see a reason to talk about Tera Blast unless we're talking about Tera as a whole, which as the survey itself states, is still a ways ahead.
Other Things: Booster Energy
Don't think it's a priority by any means, but I do find interesting the idea of banning Booster Energy. It was not conclusive, but relevant for Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle; it was very important for Roaring Moon; and it's a staple for Iron Valiant and Iron Moth, the former being seen as "borderline problematic" since the beginning of the generation and the latter being refered to as "barely fine" repeatedly in the last weeks.
I don't think lackluster mons like Brute Bonnet, Iron Thorn or Iron Jugulis not being broken with it is an argument in its favor, or at least not a strong one. GF could make an item that increased Attack and Speed of a mon by 400% with no drawbacks and Shuckle and Chansey wouldn't be broken by it. Booster Energy adds a very significant "extra oomph" to a, in my opinion, sufficiently large amount of mons to be a problem in itself. I also have the personal experience of playing in Monotype, where Booster Energy is banned and even Flutter Mane feels manageable (granted, they also don't have Tera, and is just an overall different meta, but it's not entirely irrelevant). I think it would be good for the tier, and worth a debate, if not now, sometime in the future.
IMO it is extremely relevant and makes the citation rather pointless. Monotype already has different restrictions that can make mons manageable or broken, but a teraless metagame is a night and day difference to a tera one.
I also dont see how booster energy is a productive tiering action. You're basically banning it to save two pokemon, val and moon, one of which isnt even banned rn. Maybe three if moth becomes that annoying. Flutter and bundle would get worse without booster but still not ou worthy, and everything else is perfectly fine with it.
Not particularly opposed to testing Booster Energy. It won't make Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane suitable for OU and I am not even sure Roaring Moon becomes healthy either (band Knock Off is still strong as fuck, especially with Sun), but it does nerf a lot both Iron Valiant and Iron Moth (also Tusk and Shocks to some extent). I don't actually think Iron Moth is unhealthy in the slighest but making it a little worse while making Iron Valiant fully healthy isn't a bad idea. However, Gliscor and Gholdengo are still the biggest priority for me.
moderate ammounts of fires are to be expected but right now the fire in the forums is above moderate levels.
Enjoyability: 8, there's mons I like, I enjoy teambuilding, I enjoy playing, I'm having tons of fun
Balancing: 6, still some ways to go but not as bad as it could be
Aggressivity: 10, I'm all for it if it brings stability to the tier, and I believe all QBs have been justified and retroactively supported by 99% of ppl here
Gholdengo, Gliscor, Kingambit: 5, I need you guys to shut up about them so even if I like them and I believe they're manageable, I want to clear once and for all what's gonna happen to them
Manaphy, Wogerpon: 1, the best dynamic in the tier, I like their interaction, I like them individually, they're just silly girls spamming water moves, leave them be for the time being
Sneasler: 3, it's not overpowered but it's cheesy as hell, so whatever you feel like
Tera Blast: 5, not super relevant at the time but I believe it's the right step in building towards a full Tera suspect in DLC2
Also, sorry for the question, but how is Moth using TB these days? I believed the SubBE set with Tera Grass, Fiery Dance, Sludge Wave and Energy Ball was the standard.
Also also, love you guys. I appreciate so much getting to read you everyday even if we disagree. Hope your day is going fine! :)
Balancing: 6, still some ways to go but not as bad as it could be
Aggressivity: 10, I'm all for it if it brings stability to the tier, and I believe all QBs have been justified and retroactively supported by 99% of ppl here
Gholdengo, Gliscor, Kingambit: 5, I need you guys to shut up about them so even if I like them and I believe they're manageable, I want to clear once and for all what's gonna happen to them
Manaphy, Wogerpon: 1, the best dynamic in the tier, I like their interaction, I like them individually, they're just silly girls spamming water moves, leave them be for the time being
Sneasler: 3, it's not overpowered but it's cheesy as hell, so whatever you feel like
Tera Blast: 5, not super relevant at the time but I believe it's the right step in building towards a full Tera suspect in DLC2
Also, sorry for the question, but how is Moth using TB these days? I believed the SubBE set with Tera Grass, Fiery Dance, Sludge Wave and Energy Ball was the standard.
Also also, love you guys. I appreciate so much getting to read you everyday even if we disagree. Hope your day is going fine! :)
i think shuckle might, actually. remember that it gets power trick, which lets you pull off shit like this:
+6 252+ Atk Shuckle (230 Atk) Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 730-859 (144.8 - 170.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(and not even blocked by unaware because it'd be a passive stat boost)
and with 252 speed investment it hits 436 speed, which outspeeds the entire unboosted meta
Let's get back to reality and have my takes on the Suspect list... thing
Enjoyment - 7/10. Look, I know most of the people that rant here are either on the scale of starting the generation and winning tournament (NO EXCEPTIONS). I am a person who's played every tier at this point and 1v1 in particular taught me you can build anti-meta things in times of desperation. Like ADV Camerupt in OU -- although that wasn't a dire situation, just a meta development. But sometimes the losses to the big guns really hit my ego so I can't leave this any higher than a 7/10.
Balanced - 4/10. I don't need to say how much power was added this generation, but the anti meta things are coming on clutch here. Still, I don't feel like this is a balanced tier. Balanced ≠ Enjoyable to me.
Tiering - 8/10. Most of the tier suspects and quickban have been good... except for Kingambit. Although the people testing it and quickbanning it said they made a mistake. It's sad so many quickbans has happened, but supply and demand within the player base is just crazy. They're trying their best my guy. Stop being like "yay Roaring Moon is banned. What's next?" Let me ask you this: as a tiering leader, is it fun to you when people are extremely toxic to your metagame? When people are asking for ban after ban to the point that banning everything immediately is a problem? Yea I didn't think so either.
5/5. I said too much about the PB & J that is BOTH of Gliscor and Gholdengo. They warp the tier in such a negative way. One of them -- if not both of them -- should be banned.
2/5. The Take Heart Acid Armor set is pretty good imo. But is this thing broken? No, not in the slightest. Tail Glow is just an option for it (although a very limited one)
4/5. Nothing needs to be said about Kingambit. It's too much for this tier to handle. It'll go soon.
3/5. I'm almost fairly certain this thing is on the verge of being banned, but only time will tell. Never underestimate the power of a Water type Stone Edge.
3/5. Remember when Sneasler + a Ground type wasn't manageable? Well suppose we ban Gliscor or Gholdengo. Gliscor ban would help it more but the point remains: Dire Claw, Poison Touch, and U-Turn are all incredible tools for the thing. Just be glad that it doesn't have Knock Off. Lord have mercy on the day we get Knock Off + Poison Touch.
Tera Blast - 3/10. I mean... Tera Blast is only half the issue. In a realistic word, you seriously cannot allow Terastallization in OU at all. The mechanic is much too game breaking to even be allowed. If you SERIOUSLY want to keep tera that badly, then we've got a lot more bans to go my friend.
Probably not going to get reqs for the next suspect whenever that happens, but I'm still inputting ideas for the people.
Enjoyment - 7/10. Look, I know most of the people that rant here are either on the scale of starting the generation and winning tournament (NO EXCEPTIONS). I am a person who's played every tier at this point and 1v1 in particular taught me you can build anti-meta things in times of desperation. Like ADV Camerupt in OU -- although that wasn't a dire situation, just a meta development. But sometimes the losses to the big guns really hit my ego so I can't leave this any higher than a 7/10.
Balanced - 4/10. I don't need to say how much power was added this generation, but the anti meta things are coming on clutch here. Still, I don't feel like this is a balanced tier. Balanced ≠ Enjoyable to me.
Tiering - 8/10. Most of the tier suspects and quickban have been good... except for Kingambit. Although the people testing it and quickbanning it said they made a mistake. It's sad so many quickbans has happened, but supply and demand within the player base is just crazy. They're trying their best my guy. Stop being like "yay Roaring Moon is banned. What's next?" Let me ask you this: as a tiering leader, is it fun to you when people are extremely toxic to your metagame? When people are asking for ban after ban to the point that banning everything immediately is a problem? Yea I didn't think so either.
5/5. I said too much about the PB & J that is BOTH of Gliscor and Gholdengo. They warp the tier in such a negative way. One of them -- if not both of them -- should be banned. 2/5. The Take Heart Acid Armor set is pretty good imo. But is this thing broken? No, not in the slightest. Tail Glow is just an option for it (although a very limited one) 4/5. Nothing needs to be said about Kingambit. It's too much for this tier to handle. It'll go soon. 3/5. I'm almost fairly certain this thing is on the verge of being banned, but only time will tell. Never underestimate the power of a Water type Stone Edge. 3/5. Remember when Sneasler + a Ground type wasn't manageable? Well suppose we ban Gliscor or Gholdengo. Gliscor ban would help it more but the point remains: Dire Claw, Poison Touch, and U-Turn are all incredible tools for the thing. Just be glad that it doesn't have Knock Off. Lord have mercy on the day we get Knock Off + Poison Touch.Tera Blast - 3/10. I mean... Tera Blast is only half the issue. In a realistic word, you seriously cannot allow Terastallization in OU at all. The mechanic is much too game breaking to even be allowed. If you SERIOUSLY want to keep tera that badly, then we've got a lot more bans to go my friend.
Probably not going to get reqs for the next suspect whenever that happens, but I'm still inputting ideas for the people.
I find it really hard to seriously entertain arguments around banning booster energy. We have one mon banned in part because of it in Roaring Moon--and to be fair, booster energy was a very important part of its kit. But that's it. I do not buy arguments that Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, or Walking Wake are worth action anytime before what's on the survey, and both Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle are way too much for this tier even without booster energy. So we'd be banning it to free Moon. That doesn't even come close to meeting the burden of proof required to ban an item. Booster energy should only be considered if we get multiple bans that are specifically because of it.
Dire Claw feels extremely rng dependent and most of the time it feels like you're fishing for some type of status to completely remove a mon from the game just out of pure luck. Sneasler in general feels very luck dependent with poison touch but Dire Claw makes it feel like a gambling game.
That one Sub+Booster Energy set with Tera Grass is indeed the most popular, alongside some variants which run either Psychic or Discharge instead of Sludge Wave. The Tera Blast with Tera Ground set is used mainly to deal with Heatran, which as you can probably notice completely walls it and can OHKO Iron Moth with either Earth Power or a Fire move if the latter Teras into a Grass-type. Tera Blast Ground also allows Iron Moth to have a better matchup against itself, and most importanly it hits hard mons like Glowking, Pex, Dragapult and I guess potentially Skeledirge as well (although it is currently in UU).
I put 1 on all answers. Let's stop banning stuff and just let the meta settle out until next DLC because we all know everything will change. I am surprised so many people wanted to ban roaring moon. Pretty silly.
GTFO tier
: Ok I’m convinced. While Corv can Defog freely in a Ghold-less meta, Gliscor can just slot in Taunt and keep hazards up while Corv can’t do shit back. Though that wouldn’t be enough for me to want it gone, cause normally you can threaten OHKOs with Water or Ice moves, but throw that all away cause bullshit Tera pushes another Gen 9 mon over the edge. Against SD Gliscor, Corv has to run Taunt. Plus SD Gliscor beats most of its counterplay, including other Gliscors. Legit the only switch in to it is Clef, and it’s not like Glis is teamed up with any particular Steel type or anything. Wink wink. There are plenty of SCL games where it devolves into Gliscor dittos, and a majority of teams have like 5/6 ice moves just to kill this scorpion bitch, then it Tera’s and now you got no way to one shot it. Teams have to work harder to make progress against Gliscor than it has to make progress against them. Normally you can chip down and kill the Spike setter, then spin with Tusk, even risking a sack just to keep hazards off, but Gliscor’s survivability is so good that you can just…not use Ghold. Gliscor will outlast Tusk and will Toxic it if it doesn’t get a safe switch, or has Sub. Its one of my favorites, but fuck this thing tbh.
I know this thing might seem fine with the new additions but trust me, this thing is still broken. Plus there are a billion ways to support it like Lum, Grassy Terrain, Veil, Webs, etc. In a non-Tera meta, this thing would be balanced, but since that world doesn’t exist, we have to deal with a Tera Flying or Fairy Gambit murdering your Fighting type. Dozo is the only reliable check regardless of Tera. The others like Mola need a Scald burn just to dismantle it, and god forbid that it is Lum. It straight up cleans games in 1v6 scenarios. Get it outta here, trust me you won’t regret it.
Suspect after the Quickbans
Not gonna sugarcoat it
Defog >
Good As Gold
The others mentioned don’t strike me as banworthy and I feel dealing with them will be easier with 2-3 more bans.
Suspect after the Quickbans
Defog >
Good As GoldThe others mentioned don’t strike me as banworthy and I feel dealing with them will be easier with 2-3 more bans.
Fun 4/10 I would rather study for university things than play
balanced: 5/10 gliscor meta
5/5
3/5
5/5
4/5 I have changed my mind on this one, its become less common because gliscor meta, so yeah, I think gliscor is number 1, gholdengo number 2, oger-w number 3 and gambit number 4 when it comes to top dogs
1/5
1/5
tera blast: 1/5 where the fuck this thing came from Idk, but I'm a no action at all on tera guy, so this has no support on me
anything else? The valiant + booster ban train is a joke, and if somebody really puts a spikes thread in policy review, it would get shut down
instantly
are you good at the game? No, but I do the reports, so maybe that's worth something? Okay im sorry
I have already explained everything not explained here
balanced: 5/10 gliscor meta
5/5 3/5 5/5 4/5 I have changed my mind on this one, its become less common because gliscor meta, so yeah, I think gliscor is number 1, gholdengo number 2, oger-w number 3 and gambit number 4 when it comes to top dogs 1/5 1/5tera blast: 1/5 where the fuck this thing came from Idk, but I'm a no action at all on tera guy, so this has no support on me
anything else? The valiant + booster ban train is a joke, and if somebody really puts a spikes thread in policy review, it would get shut down
instantly
are you good at the game? No, but I do the reports, so maybe that's worth something? Okay im sorry
I have already explained everything not explained here
I think people calling en masse for quickbans over suspects for such a huge part of the meta is truly insane. Gliscor is potentially banworthy, but it's not quickban worthy, and I think quickbanning it simply because people dislike playing against it would be really premature. Spikes are inherently a huge part of this meta, and there are ways around them (even if people don't like those ways); the ramifications of removing the best spikes user are so huge that I think a suspect process will be necessary.
as a curious outsider im just wondering what exactly a gholdengo ban is supposed to do as far as the hazards meta goes aside from making corviknight somewhat better. fact of the matter is that when we look at the removal options in lower tiers, theyre either never gonna be good enough to see any significant usage in ou regardless and/or theyre not actually any good at removal, bar maybe mandibuzz. meanwhile the most common remover in the tier already hits gholdengo super effectively. i suppose that to me it just seems really obvious that it's the combination of very few ou-worthy mons having removal options and spikers being ridiculously good, i mean, the ease with which gliscor/ting lu/samurott barf spikes puts ferrothorn to shame. but perhaps im missing something here, so id love to be enlightened.
Ghold blocks ALL forms of hazard removal, no court change doesn’t count, sure tusk can OHKO it, but if ghold switches in on a rapid spin, spikes stay up. And even if you kill ghold, that can allow a mon that can OHKO Tusk or a setup sweeper to get in, also hazards are STILL UP. This is why people want ghold gone, me included.
I think the biggest problem with ghold is that there has never been a mon that could stop defog just generally speaking. Spin could always be stopped by any ghost but the big thing is that if you had a particularly hazards weak team you could ALWAYS spend a turn to get rid of hazards if you got your defogger in on something that didnt kill it. Ghold existing makes team structures that rely on the guaranteed removal just impossible to build and heavily constricts the meta. I also think you might be underestimating just how big of an impact corv being viable would make. This mon is already pretty good frankly and without ghold it might genuinely become one of the best mons in the tier.
Shorter thoughts on this survey i described a lot of my thoughts on these mons last survey
Fun and Balance: still 2-3/10 its still a hazards offense meta and that hasnt changed since last survey
3/5 I've started to see this thing as more of a threat and see the games where its a bit of a stalemate but i would prefer to see this in a Gholdless-meta before banning it. I know that probably won't happen tho. Rn I'm just undecided and may decide over the course of a suspect
4/5 I had a streak of going like 25-0 with a veil offense team with manaphy when trying for RM reqs. This thing dumb carried me and its so easy to see how broken this mon is when people are not prepared for it. If it aint broken now it will be
5/5 see my entire post history in this thread
5/5 Honestly to me this is the most broken offensive pokemon in OU rn. Just doesn't really have many answers and the few it does have isn't enough imo to stop this thing from being a problem. Will 100% be broken once hazards meta is over.
2/5 Yeah dire claw dumb i got cheesed one game they got the sleep on me. But whatever. i do think its not the greatest move or sneasler set on the other 4/5 games you dont get the sleep. If yall ban it it will be in the same vein as Quick Claw/Bright Powder/Sand Veil bans which is imo kinda dumb since the strats arent even good. Warranted maybe but from my viewpoint if youre crippling yourself by running these cheese sets you deserve to try for cheese.
4/5 Its pretty centralizing and has one of the stupider pokemon abilities in how much you gain from it vs how much you have to put in to get the gain. Find myself needing many answers to this and thats not even discussing tera which its obv broken with. Broken without tera too tho.
Tera Blast: 0/5 I think you cripple yourself too much running tera blast it doesnt feel good to me. You basically feel like you're requiring yourself to tera with that mon. Requiring a mon to tera is usually the last thing you want to do with tera since its best use imo is in tera-ing optimally with a pokemon on a matchup to matchup basis, or cheesing a kill by flipping your weakness into a resist and hitting back hard. The only time you should be ok with commiting to tera-ing the same pokemon every game is if that pokemon is broken with tera blast, which implies the mon should just be banned anyways since im sure its also quite good without tera blast. The most broken teras imo right now use tera to gain stab on another move such as Flying RM with Acrobatics we just saw. This change does nothing to punish them. I also think tera blast is probably my FAVORITE part of tera since it allows you to use lower tier pokemon more effectively in ou by patching up their weak points. That is exactly what i want to see out of ou. Without tera blast OU becomes even more power creep gatekept than it already is.
Fun and Balance: still 2-3/10 its still a hazards offense meta and that hasnt changed since last survey
3/5 I've started to see this thing as more of a threat and see the games where its a bit of a stalemate but i would prefer to see this in a Gholdless-meta before banning it. I know that probably won't happen tho. Rn I'm just undecided and may decide over the course of a suspect 4/5 I had a streak of going like 25-0 with a veil offense team with manaphy when trying for RM reqs. This thing dumb carried me and its so easy to see how broken this mon is when people are not prepared for it. If it aint broken now it will be 5/5 see my entire post history in this thread 5/5 Honestly to me this is the most broken offensive pokemon in OU rn. Just doesn't really have many answers and the few it does have isn't enough imo to stop this thing from being a problem. Will 100% be broken once hazards meta is over. 2/5 Yeah dire claw dumb i got cheesed one game they got the sleep on me. But whatever. i do think its not the greatest move or sneasler set on the other 4/5 games you dont get the sleep. If yall ban it it will be in the same vein as Quick Claw/Bright Powder/Sand Veil bans which is imo kinda dumb since the strats arent even good. Warranted maybe but from my viewpoint if youre crippling yourself by running these cheese sets you deserve to try for cheese. 4/5 Its pretty centralizing and has one of the stupider pokemon abilities in how much you gain from it vs how much you have to put in to get the gain. Find myself needing many answers to this and thats not even discussing tera which its obv broken with. Broken without tera too tho.Tera Blast: 0/5 I think you cripple yourself too much running tera blast it doesnt feel good to me. You basically feel like you're requiring yourself to tera with that mon. Requiring a mon to tera is usually the last thing you want to do with tera since its best use imo is in tera-ing optimally with a pokemon on a matchup to matchup basis, or cheesing a kill by flipping your weakness into a resist and hitting back hard. The only time you should be ok with commiting to tera-ing the same pokemon every game is if that pokemon is broken with tera blast, which implies the mon should just be banned anyways since im sure its also quite good without tera blast. The most broken teras imo right now use tera to gain stab on another move such as Flying RM with Acrobatics we just saw. This change does nothing to punish them. I also think tera blast is probably my FAVORITE part of tera since it allows you to use lower tier pokemon more effectively in ou by patching up their weak points. That is exactly what i want to see out of ou. Without tera blast OU becomes even more power creep gatekept than it already is.
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