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I really don't understand the hate boner everyone has for Blacephalon. Yes Tyranitar sucks for it, but if they don't have one (this is quite common) blace is gonna be a problem, especially if Specs (its best set imo). Tyranitar isn't even a complete stop to it anyway:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Grass vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
This hits Gastro too, so it's not like you're running some whack move just to have a chance to kill ttar. Alternatively, you can run HP Ground instead, this catches SpDef Heatran. Blace > Gengar everyday of the week.
I really don't understand the hate boner everyone has for Blacephalon. Yes Tyranitar sucks for it, but if they don't have one (this is quite common) blace is gonna be a problem, especially if Specs (its best set imo). Tyranitar isn't even a complete stop to it anyway:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Grass vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
This hits Gastro too, so it's not like you're running some whack move just to have a chance to kill ttar. Alternatively, you can run HP Ground instead, this catches SpDef Heatran. Blace > Gengar everyday of the week.
Blace isn't intrinsically bad. Not really. The thing with Blace is just that it's an incredible hit-or-miss mon. It CAN shred through some teams, but it just does pretty much nothing besides provoking some switches against even more teams. Unlike Kartana, who can actually snowball with pretty much all of its sets and even has some utility with Knock/Defog, Blace usually gets stopped by one thing or another before it becomes unstoppable (usually Spdef Pex). Being incredibly weak to the most common priority move in the tier also does it no favors. Even worse, Blace just invites Gren since none of its moves OHKO (if Specs) or 2HKO (if Scarf), leaving you most likely with either spikes on your side or an Ash-Greninja on your opponent's.
And please don't get me started on choice-locked HP Grass (or even Ground), that just invites a bunch of setup sweepers like Volcarona and the likes to setup for the win...
Adding to what Finch said - stop posting one liners or posts that qualify as one liners or you're going to wear it as punishment for a while. If your nomination wasn't on the slate there's no reason to follow-up in such a matter.
Just so this post isn't me chewing someome out:
Magearna to S-
To some this may seem like a stretch, and for what it's worth I can definitely see why. But recently Magearna has been doing phenomenal work within SPL and has had some decisive victories due to teams underprepping for Shift Gear Magearna. Assault Vest Magearna is still an awesome fit for a lot of teams and keeps Tapu Lele from overdominating some of them as well. Z Electric in Electric Terrain and Z Fighting are fairly potent at the moment, and using Calm Mind or Hidden Power over Focus Blast has still lead victories. Even Z Fleur is pretty solid if you can overwhelm Toxapex with other teammates or run Thunderbolt.
I feel Magearna currently shows a strong metagame influence both offensively and defensively. With one or the other I could see where A+ makes more sense. In combination to each Other, though, I feel Magearna' S versatility helps push it to S-.
Since S- isnt blacklisted anymore let's put moms that deserve the ranking in there IMO.
Blace isn't intrinsically bad. Not really. The thing with Blace is just that it's an incredible hit-or-miss mon. It CAN shred through some teams, but it just does pretty much nothing besides provoking some switches against even more teams. Unlike Kartana, who can actually snowball with pretty much all of its sets and even has some utility with Knock/Defog, Blace usually gets stopped by one thing or another before it becomes unstoppable (usually Spdef Pex). Being incredibly weak to the most common priority move in the tier also does it no favors. Even worse, Blace just invites Gren since none of its moves OHKO (if Specs) or 2HKO (if Scarf), leaving you most likely with either spikes on your side or an Ash-Greninja on your opponent's.
And please don't get me started on choice-locked HP Grass (or even Ground), that just invites a bunch of setup sweepers like Volcarona and the likes to setup for the win...
Kartana outclasses Blacephalon, no doubt. The question I am asking myself is, why are you even comparing the two? Kartana always acts like a good wallbreaker with mediocre utility. An insane Pokémon, but mediocre utility in Knock Off/Defog, not being able to defog on a consistent bases. What Blacephalon does, however, is either act like a late-game cleaner with no utility but coverage moves instead or WITH utility moves such as Will-o-Wisp and actually doing decent. By the way, I am wondering myself how nobody has picked up the Will-o-Wisp set by now..
Adding to what Finch said - stop posting one liners or posts that qualify as one liners or you're going to wear it as punishment for a while. If your nomination wasn't on the slate there's no reason to follow-up in such a matter.
Just so this post isn't me chewing someome out:
Magearna to S-
To some this may seem like a stretch, and for what it's worth I can definitely see why. But recently Magearna has been doing phenomenal work within SPL and has had some decisive victories due to teams underprepping for Shift Gear Magearna. Assault Vest Magearna is still an awesome fit for a lot of teams and keeps Tapu Lele from overdominating some of them as well. Z Electric in Electric Terrain and Z Fighting are fairly potent at the moment, and using Calm Mind or Hidden Power over Focus Blast has still lead victories. Even Z Fleur is pretty solid if you can overwhelm Toxapex with other teammates or run Thunderbolt.
I feel Magearna currently shows a strong metagame influence both offensively and defensively. With one or the other I could see where A+ makes more sense. In combination to each Other, though, I feel Magearna' S versatility helps push it to S-.
Since S- isnt blacklisted anymore let's put moms that deserve the ranking in there IMO.
You said the council will seriously consider buzzwole in the next slate, however, there is no mention of it in Finch's post, which is why I posted the picture. I realize that posts should add to the discussion in a constructive manner at all times and I apologize for the low effort post, I just wanted to make a joke that buzzwole didnt even get mentioned. With that being said I dont think that me posting that picture should warrant infracting me since my posts are usually very well informed and lengthy and this was my first minor offense.
Either way, I would like to disagree with Magearna to S-. It is nowhere near any of the currently S- ranked pokemon and while it is true that people are not running EQ Mega-Venusaur anymore, SpD Toxapex usage is as high as ever. I agree that Assault Vest is a very nice blanket check to a huge portion of the metagame, but thats all it is which is why it should stay ranked in A+.
For Blacephalon, I think its recent drop is justified. I dont agree with Finch that it is garbage and you shouldnt use it ever, but you would much rather have Heatran as your offensive special fire type in most cases due to how much more (defensive! and offensive) utility it brings to the table.
Keldeo should not go anywhere near the likes of Mamoswine as while yes LL scarf Keldeo is walled by Toxapex its job is not to break Toxapex, but rather to revenge kill an extraordinary amount of the metagame and it has the power/bulk/typing to do so. Equipped with a Stealth Rock resistance Keldeo is one of the premier revenge killers in this tier. LL also identified that Waterium Keldeo can break better than Scarf Keldeo which is correct and a nice set on its own. Able to taunt suicide leads and burst something with Waterium-Z while resisting some key threats like Ash-Greninja against offense and breaking bulkier builds with Taunt and Calm Mind allows Keldeo to shine in yet another tier. Keldeo should stay B+ or rise to A-.
Mega-Venusaur can go to B fwiw as lacking Regenerator makes it a lot clunkier than its competitors Amoonguss and Tangrowth (and AV Bulu too ofc Grassy Terrain + Horn Leech is such proactive recovery). Synthesis still sucks, it has pretty bad 4mss and Toxapex sits on it forever. Venu still has its merits too, but I dont think they are really desireable right now.
With that being said Amoonguss is still ranked too low, it can fit on a bunch of teams from offense to stall and has quite a bit of choices when it comes to its movepool for a defensive pokemon. Besides blanket checking stuff like Kartana, Tapu Koko, Ash-Greninja and more it is also able to absorb toxic spikes, keep up momentum via spore and spread other status with stun spore or toxic. Yes it is weak to flying and psychic but these can be covered by nice partners such as for example Celesteela. B should be a nice spot for it.
Adding to what Finch said - stop posting one liners or posts that qualify as one liners or you're going to wear it as punishment for a while. If your nomination wasn't on the slate there's no reason to follow-up in such a matter.
Just so this post isn't me chewing someome out:
Magearna to S-
To some this may seem like a stretch, and for what it's worth I can definitely see why. But recently Magearna has been doing phenomenal work within SPL and has had some decisive victories due to teams underprepping for Shift Gear Magearna. Assault Vest Magearna is still an awesome fit for a lot of teams and keeps Tapu Lele from overdominating some of them as well. Z Electric in Electric Terrain and Z Fighting are fairly potent at the moment, and using Calm Mind or Hidden Power over Focus Blast has still lead victories. Even Z Fleur is pretty solid if you can overwhelm Toxapex with other teammates or run Thunderbolt.
I feel Magearna currently shows a strong metagame influence both offensively and defensively. With one or the other I could see where A+ makes more sense. In combination to each Other, though, I feel Magearna' S versatility helps push it to S-.
Since S- isnt blacklisted anymore let's put moms that deserve the ranking in there IMO.
Would like to agree with Magearna to S-
I personally think there is only 1 set that has the viability to make S-, and thats the AV set. But the reason it is worthy of S- is because of the strength of its other (probably A+) worthy sets right now: Having to prepare against either a complete SpD wall or a setup sweeper is the kind of versatility that NO OTHER MON has in the tier, bar Lando with either pure defense or Z-move. And it really isn't as easy to guess in team preview as one might expect, with many people lazily expecting AV even at the highest level play.
Even if excluding the guessing game Magearna brings, AV is the reason that BO builds can even exist, it is the best or on par with Lando at its role as a pivoter (maybe a little worse due to Volt switch over U-turn), hence the S-.
I was surprised when I've notified that M-Cham was only A-. from my experience, I can tell it can do its job more than well if it has the right support. I feel like it's one of the best breakers of the tier at this moment if it's not the best... capable of getting OHKO and 2HKO on almost everything. it takes advantage of the popularity of things like FerroPex and Scarf Lando-t as well as the small drop of Mew and can put in a lot of pressure. refering to the SPL usage stats, it's the second most used mega and it's even better combined with threats such as koko and greninja which run rampant. when used on teams like VoltTurn, it's really hard to play around it. last thing, its bulk isn't that bad so it is able to survive hits from the likes of kartana. that's why I believe M-Cham should be A.
Such harsh opinons smh... Yes, there is a reason it dropped in viability, the main reason being Tyranitar. But there is a set that, if u allow, I would like to share:
I do not know, if you were ever aware of the set but in my opinion, this set is great. It mainly acts as a Tyranitar lure but can also trick Pokémon on stall and burn physical attackers that would otherwise pose a (huge) threat to the team. It also is a great late-game-cleaner against Hyper-Offenses, but that is needless to say.
In a nutshell: A drop in usage is a drop in usage, saying it straight up bad, though, is a bit too harsh.
The problem with this "lure" is that it doesn't actually beat Tyranitar:
252+ Atk burned Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 123-145 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
That's Tyranitar's lowest BP move with status, and Blace is still doing 10% with Flamethrower. Granted, a Choice locked, burned Tyranitar is solid setup material for a few things, particularly if it's locked into Pursuit, but it's not like anything else at the top of the VR can't clean Tyranitar either. In short: there's no need to lure something that is weak to nearly every top tier offensive threat.
Greninja spikes up, but thats fine, since the hazards are getting removed at one point or another regardless.
DD pursuit isnt a set and theres still the possibility of burning the Tyranitar with Will-o-Wisp, as stated in my initial post.
Toxapex is usually gonna be met with an adequate switch-in. Furthermore, Knock Off is a rarity on Toxapex, which is why I dont think it was worth mentioning.
I dont think its a huge momentum drainer either... as i said, the wisp trick set provides the momentum it would otherwise lack. Its one of the few Pokémon that can make a huge threat, literally turn into set-up bait.
Seriously, pair that Blacephalon set with a set-up Pokémon such as Reuniclus or Clefable f.e. .
If you dont, then its fine, but then stop saying that Blacephalon is bad and just a huge momentum drainer, because its not.
You can't just assume you have a Defogger alive and healthy and you can guarantee it's coming in right after Blace switches out, particularly when Tyranitar and Greninja can nuke lots of common foggers. So if they predict the swap something's getting blown away. Also CM Fable is bad against Toxapex (who also checks Blace) and CM Reuniclus is bad against.. well most things, but especially Tyranitar, who also checks Blace.
Anyway, the top 4 reasons Blace is ranked so lowly:
1. No good players use it. That doesn't mean you're bad if you use it, but if you watch SPL it's really rare that you see Blacephalon.
2. It's bad against nearly every team. Few teams are unprepared for it, and many of them ARE prepared merely by happy accident because it has so few niches where it can succeed. This is likely the cause for reason 1.
3. It's really really limited in what it does: it functionally only has 2 moves: Flamespam and Shadow Ball. Both are well resisted by top threats, giving lots of things a chance to swap in on it.
4. There are sooooooOOOOoo many things that outclass Blacephalon as a special sweeper that there's almost no good reason to use it. Need a Wisp user? Try Gengar or Megazard X. Need a speedy cleaner? Try Scarf Kartana. Need a setup sweeper? Try CM Koko or Volcarona. Need a trick abuser? Try Gengar or Hoopa-U. Try to name one thing that Blacephalon does better than ANYTHING else in the metagame and you'll notice how outclassed it is. That's not to say it's garbage - B is a fine rank for outclassed things. But it's not moving up any time soon.
TL;DR - Blace is not moving up in the VR until half of OU gets banned and I think it's about time it gets dropped from discussion for a while
The problem with this "lure" is that it doesn't actually beat Tyranitar:
252+ Atk burned Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 123-145 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
That's Tyranitar's lowest BP move with status, and Blace is still doing 10% with Flamethrower. Granted, a Choice locked, burned Tyranitar is solid setup material for a few things, particularly if it's locked into Pursuit, but it's not like anything else at the top of the VR can't clean Tyranitar either. In short: there's no need to lure something that is weak to nearly every top tier offensive threat.
If I may, I'm going to point out that the set is used a lure to support teammates. It lures in and cripples Tyranitar for teammates like CM Reuni so that they can sweep moreso than actually beating Tyranitar. I'm afraid that this is just a misunderstanding of what the set is supposed to do.I still think that Blacephalon is pretty ineffective for a multitude of reasons, but I wanted to point out that you incorrectly identified the purpose of Patlop's set. A lot of the rest of this post has a lot of general/blanket statements that don't even apply to Blacephalon properly and are incorrectly comparing Pokemon that aren't even the same as it whatsoever as well. Blacephalon's tendency to be dead weight against balanced teams for the most part while being incredibly difficult to use effectively due to its insane frailty and liability to being revenge killed even when it's facing offense is what makes it a subpar option, not "being outclassed as a Will-O-Wisp user by Zardx" like you said.
I actually agree with Blacephalon's drop to B but I'm going to go ahead and say maybe we're taking this whole Blace hate train thing a little too far, it isn't actually that much of an awful mon and it can still pull of some niche sets like Taunt + CM and SubCM and really devastate stall and Tyranitar-less balance. I don't really think it needs to drop any farther than B.
Why hasn't this guy risen? Zapy is a good check to many thretaning 'mons right now, like hawchula, ferrothorn, lando (stone edge won't ko) and m-siz to name a few. Also, its 3 attacks + roost set beats the 'mons mentioned above, and other good 'mons like kartana , zygarde, pinsir, magnezone, and celesteela.
The problem with this "lure" is that it doesn't actually beat Tyranitar:
252+ Atk burned Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 123-145 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
That's Tyranitar's lowest BP move with status, and Blace is still doing 10% with Flamethrower. Granted, a Choice locked, burned Tyranitar is solid setup material for a few things, particularly if it's locked into Pursuit, but it's not like anything else at the top of the VR can't clean Tyranitar either. In short: there's no need to lure something that is weak to nearly every top tier offensive threat.
You can't just assume you have a Defogger alive and healthy and you can guarantee it's coming in right after Blace switches out, particularly when Tyranitar and Greninja can nuke lots of common foggers. So if they predict the swap something's getting blown away. Also CM Fable is bad against Toxapex (who also checks Blace) and CM Reuniclus is bad against.. well most things, but especially Tyranitar, who also checks Blace.
Anyway, the top 4 reasons Blace is ranked so lowly:
1. No good players use it. That doesn't mean you're bad if you use it, but if you watch SPL it's really rare that you see Blacephalon.
2. It's bad against nearly every team. Few teams are unprepared for it, and many of them ARE prepared merely by happy accident because it has so few niches where it can succeed. This is likely the cause for reason 1.
3. It's really really limited in what it does: it functionally only has 2 moves: Flamespam and Shadow Ball. Both are well resisted by top threats, giving lots of things a chance to swap in on it.
4. There are sooooooOOOOoo many things that outclass Blacephalon as a special sweeper that there's almost no good reason to use it. Need a Wisp user? Try Gengar or Megazard X. Need a speedy cleaner? Try Scarf Kartana. Need a setup sweeper? Try CM Koko or Volcarona. Need a trick abuser? Try Gengar or Hoopa-U. Try to name one thing that Blacephalon does better than ANYTHING else in the metagame and you'll notice how outclassed it is. That's not to say it's garbage - B is a fine rank for outclassed things. But it's not moving up any time soon.
TL;DR - Blace is not moving up in the VR until half of OU gets banned and I think it's about time it gets dropped from discussion for a while
LL said almost everything there was to say, except for one small thing.
Blacephalon does hit a certain niche and does NOT get outclassed by anything, not Wisp Zard-X, not by CM Koko, not by anything. It acts like a sweeper that can be an optional supporter in otherwise dead match-ups.
Hot take but I'm nominating Xatu for at least C if not higher. I've used it pretty much primarily to climb into the top 20 on the ladder. Its typing and ability makes a very underrated answer to a lot of problem mons and with the right build around it its very useful. I'll copy paste much of my argument from the meta thread
"People are gonna call me crazy but I think Xatu of all things is a ridiculously anti meta choice right now. with a max hp max def bold rocky helmet set it walls shit like ferrothorn (takes 40 from gyro and it only has 8 pp), chansey (can only click seismic and take 16%) pex (scald does 20ish% while psychic hits for 35-40 and can fish for drops) and forces defensive lando to always uturn and take chip as the only thing it can usually hit with is hp ice. It also works as a emergency Kart check if its locked into anything other than knock off. I fluttering around the 1850-1950 range right now with it so its hardly some flukey mess. Not saying its the best thing in the tier but with a team built around it its unique typing and magic bounce can really fuck up a lot of common cores and makes them forsake a lot of momentum. pex/steel builds just get bopped by the free turns it provides. Moveset I'm running is psychic/uturn/roost/defog. I think its a really slept on mon."
Really the only setters that are getting hazards up on this thing are heatran, Mamoswine, zmove lando, and greninja. All things that if you pull a expected double or u turn out on puts your oppenent in a terrible spot if you bring in the appropriate counter. I'm not saying this thing beats teams solo but it can be a major deterrent to a lot of very common builds now. Xatu/Chansey is a very under utilized core that I think answers quite a few problems in team building now. You get rid of their trapper tran and its pretty much free points.
replay showing xatu stopping defensive lando t (the most popular set IIRC) from doing anything in the match. Once hes gone it opens up specs koko to just click buttons. opponent misplay a bit letting me psychic multiple times but either way lando wasn't doing much this match.
Why hasn't this guy risen? Zapy is a good check to many thretaning 'mons right now, like hawchula, ferrothorn, lando (stone edge won't ko) and m-siz to name a few. Also, its 3 attacks + roost set beats the 'mons mentioned above, and other good 'mons like kartana , zygarde, pinsir, magnezone, and celesteela.
I'd love to hear the reasons why it didn't rise, but considering it was just voted on means that it probably won't go up to A any time soon. It can just remain as the best mon in the tier, idrc
Another nomination: Mega Gyarados to B+
I don't have any new meta trends to justify this, I just think that it is underrated as it stands. Beats three of the 4 S- or higher mons (Doesn't even hard lose to Kartana imo, especially scarf locked ones, beats Pex w/ sub set or if it avoids burn)
W/ intimidate and the ability to type switch it serves to be a very good defensive mon, and doesn't really have a hard time setting up w/ its array of useful resists and intimidate. Helps damage control for teams that are weak to ash-greninja. It also eats up niche playstyles (Webs/Trick Room). I wish I had a better reason for this nom, if anyone else wants to chime in agreeing or disagreeing please do.
While I don't think Blace is that great, I think we should talk about another frail, awkward speed tier Beast Boost mon that's a billion times worse than Blacephalon
Nihilego
C —> C- (or UR)
I think this is one of the most irrelevant things on the VR. When climbing I’ve seen it used on mono rock teams low ladder and that’s about it. You 100% have something on your team that walls it because it’s so hopelessly useless against steel types. I think it’s probably the single worst Tspike user in the tier (even scolipede is a good deal better). Has this thing ever been used in a serious tournament? Gliscor is everywhere (if HP Ice you are completely walled by steels), Rotom is back in OU and Pex ubiquity just invalidates any Tspikes you get up. It’s ONLY niche is revenge killing Volcorona/Zard but there’s better countermeasures than this (like no joke Lycanroc is better at this and it just got unranked and it sits in a much better speed tier and has useful coverage and priority and a Z-move!).
nobody really uses him and for good reason -- the sweeping sets end up killing themselves, not getting a sufficient set-up opportunity, or simply not doing the job (either through getting checked defensively or checked offensively aka RKd), limiting to one kill if even. the 3a set is a bit better, but it is hard to fit as it does so little against fat, it requires support w/ defog, it can still get checked/walled by a number of things, and it doesn't like fill one of the things you need in teambuilding. like you got that checklist in your head -- hazards, check to X pokemon Y pokemon and Z pokemon, rocks, scarf, etc. and it provides literally negative utility due to its typing (maybe soft checking scarf Kart and bulu w/o hazards, but that's not much to brag about tbh). just dont see it being on par w. the other b+ pokemon rn given the current outlook of the tier and teambuilding especially.
dnite to c or c-
another dragon that literally has a super minimal niche. i guess dd z sets are semi-cool, but nobody takes adv. of them, they never actually sweep, and getting 1 net kill really isn't ideal. i feel like the scarfer meagame and just general choices in pivots rn are not particularly friendly to dnite in a tier where it already doesn't fit onto any teams and you need to go wayyyyy out of your way to fit. not to mention it fits into a similar place as zardx when it comes to the predicament of not fulfilling a ton for a team as a whole, so yea i think dnite is pretty terrible and should drop as well!
Going to go through some nominations other people have made and some of my own nominations.
from b- to B: Agree.
Amoonguss is actually really solid in the current meta. A lot of teams actually rely on Heatran to break through it; with Stomping Tantrum, it can get rid of the opponents only countermeasure. Amoonguss has a pretty solid niche as a bulky grass type as well as a t spike absorber. This lets you save some team slots as well as allow it to fit on offensive teams in conjunction with regenerator. Amoonguss is pretty slept on at the moment, and thats why it should move up. It is definitley better than the dogshit in B- like Tapu Fini and Skarmory.
from B to B+: On the fence, but leaning towards yes.
I can see both sides of the argument here. On one hand, Z hex, the main reason people think it should rise, is really annoying for a lot of bulkier teams to switch into. If it has taunt, it also utterly wrecks stall without Weavile. I also see Gengar on the level of the B+ mons. However, the reason I think it could stay is because Gengar faces a lot of competition from other breakers like NP Hoopa Unbound, CM Tapu Lele, and even Sub Calm Mind Blacephalon to an extent, (though Gengar is a bit better.) Z Hex is also complete Ttar food as to my knowledge it does not usually run Focus Blast. I would be fine if it rises or stays.
Now my nominations,
from B- to C+.
This has seen a whopping 0 usage in SPL so far, and for good reason. Serperior is just not that good in a meta where Heatran is as common as Bacteria. Serperior just doesn't have a big enough niche to find itself on a team anymore. Furthermore, it is complete Tornadus food, a mon on the rise. It is in no way as good as Stakataka, Quaqsire, and Heracross mega.
from B+ to B,
Like Serperior, there really is not much reason to use Tangrowth right now. It is almost completely outclassed by AV Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu. The only reason you would even consider using Tangrowth is its tiny niche of not lower earthquakes power. This is certainly not B+ worthy, and I believe that Tangrowth should drop to B for these reasons.
from C to C+
LO Alakazam is actually really solid atm. It is a pain for teams without AV Magearna to switch into because it breaks all other Lele checks with Focus Blast, because Mega Scizor does not have the special bulk to take LO Focus Blast. Outside of Tapu Fini, you are not going to find a better Heatran switch in. Alakazam is much better than most of the garbage and C, and belongs more with the C+ mons. It is niche, but it does have a reason to be used in the current meta.
BladeoFriendship stop sniping me while I'm typing D:<
I can get with moving Venusaur down. It's really not the unstoppable defensive behemoth it used to be. Regenerator + spore gives Amoonguss ridiculous utility, tho AV can work as well, giving it actually some variety since the threat of spore is always there. It's definitely more of a competitor now and that hurts Venu a bit.
Also agree with keldeo down - I was actually gonna nom that myself but basically it's fucking garbage. PEX isn't dying away, and well, neither is a shit ton of things that wall it's stab combo. Scarf is a joke. Taunt + Water z does mess with stall but imo with its other sets dying this thing has lost its previous versatility and should drop for it.
Chansey up. Chansey has just been ridiculous this SPL, with lord and saviour p2 showing how effective it can be even outside of stall. The utility it provides in pretty much checking all special attackers, healing wish, rocks - which it consistently gets up - and twave has won many SPL games, and the increasing splashibility leads me to believe it should rise.
and ofc mobile sends before I'm even done lmao. Will post a bit more later but I also wanna bring mew up .
Going to go through some nominations other people have made and some of my own nominations.
View attachment 102884from B+ to B,
Like Serperior, there really is not much reason to use Tangrowth right now. It is almost completely outclassed by AV Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu. The only reason you would even consider using Tangrowth is its tiny niche of not lower earthquakes power. This is certainly not B+ worthy, and I believe that Tangrowth should drop to B for these reasons.
I agree with most of what you said but it's important to note that it is indeed very different from AV amoong, Tapu BUlu , and mega venu and not outclassed in that it can soft-check both kartana and non z-fly lando-t in one slot. Granted you would have to rely on focus blast to kill kartana if you wanna keep hp ice, but AV amoong/Venusaur is not a ground resist and Tapu Bulu is not a kartana check.
You also mentioned that AV amoong can fight back against tran switch-ins with its newfound stomping tantrum, but tangrowth could do that with eq from the start as well.
Basically, I find them very comparable. Amoong gets the poison-typing to resist fairy and fighting+absorbing tspikes in exchange for not being a lando-t check, whereas tangrowth's pure grass typing lets it checks grounds better and is more offensive/unpredictable in general (can run knock off, hp ice/fire, eq, focus blast, rock slide, etc). Tangy has its own niche and should not drop to B on the basis of being outclassed.
I agree with most of what you said but it's important to note that it is indeed very different from AV amoong, Tapu BUlu , and mega venu and not outclassed in that it can soft-check both kartana and non z-fly lando-t in one slot. Granted you would have to rely on focus blast to kill kartana if you wanna keep hp ice, but AV amoong/Venusaur is not a ground resist and Tapu Bulu is not a kartana check.
You also mentioned that AV amoong can fight back against tran switch-ins with its newfound stomping tantrum, but tangrowth could do that with eq from the start as well.
Basically, I find them very comparable. Amoong gets the poison-typing to resist fairy and fighting+absorbing tspikes in exchange for not being a lando-t check, whereas tangrowth's pure grass typing lets it checks grounds better and is more offensive/unpredictable in general (can run knock off, hp ice/fire, eq, focus blast, rock slide, etc). Tangy has its own niche and should not drop to B on the basis of being outclassed.
I feel a lot of meta trends just don't favor Tang at all. Torn-T is hot, and Tang can't touch it. Sure, Tang is hard for some things to kill, but it also happens to be the easiest thing to switch into. This is especially problematic when both Volcarona and Hawlucha are very common, and crush teams after 1 free turn.
Ok let me post with my own opinions on Blacephelon vs Gengar.(This is my second post so feel free to correct me and I don't know how to add animating pictures of the mons).
Abilities
Obviously Blacephelon wins right here because of its much better ability. Cursed body is kinda useless compared to the very solid ability in Beast Boost.
Movepool
Blacephelon-CM,F blast, F thrower, S Ball, Trick, Hidden Power, Explosion(For volc), PsyChic and Shock, Taunt, Will-o-wisp etc.
Gengar: S Ball, S Wave, F Blast, Taunt, Hidden Power, Will-o-wisp, Hex, D Bond etc.
This is a tie for me because the generic sets for both mons will have fixed moves such as S Ball is usually a fixed moveset (unless u run hex on gar), or you will usually always see S wave and Blast on Gar.
One might expect gar to win this round because of his ability to 2hko ttar but
1>Its focus blast, people call it focus miss for a reason and it can only 2hko ttar
2>Blacephelon can kinda break through ttar as well with correct prediction
Typing
Blacephelon: Fire/Ghost
Gengar: Ghost/Poison
Blacephelon's typing is a mixed bag. On one hand fire can be a potent stab allowing it to weaken steel types such as Mage but Weakness to stealth rocks, water shuriken (which is everywhere) and ground is p bad.
Gengar's typing of poison allows it to hit the tapus which can be really good along with grass types.
This round is again a type for me because both their stabs are good but both have their own Problems but gengar has the edge
Lastly, there is stats
Gengar's potent 110 base speed can be really handy in stopping a kartana snowball because
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO but doesn't serve much more purpose than that because keldeo is trash rn and it mostly runs scarf
Blacephelon's Special attack is really dang good and has chance to break through sp. def. pex when using specs when having rocks and a layer of spikes because
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
Both have garbage defenses with gengar having a bit more defense and Blacephelon having a bit more sp. def.
Overall, I conclude that both are almost equal in their own right and feel that they should be in the same tier as each other. I personally feel that Blace is better but lets follow the results
Ok let me post with my own opinions on Blacephelon vs Gengar.(This is my second post so feel free to correct me and I don't know how to add animating pictures of the mons).
Abilities
Obviously Blacephelon wins right here because of its much better ability. Cursed body is kinda useless compared to the very solid ability in Beast Boost.
Movepool
Blacephelon-CM,F blast, F thrower, S Ball, Trick, Hidden Power, Explosion(For volc), PsyChic and Shock, Taunt, Will-o-wisp etc.
Gengar: S Ball, S Wave, F Blast, Taunt, Hidden Power, Will-o-wisp, Hex, D Bond etc.
This is a tie for me because the generic sets for both mons will have fixed moves such as S Ball is usually a fixed moveset (unless u run hex on gar), or you will usually always see S wave and Blast on Gar.
One might expect gar to win this round because of his ability to 2hko ttar but
1>Its focus blast, people call it focus miss for a reason and it can only 2hko ttar
2>Blacephelon can kinda break through ttar as well with correct prediction
Typing
Blacephelon: Fire/Ghost
Gengar: Ghost/Poison
Blacephelon's typing is a mixed bag. On one hand fire can be a potent stab allowing it to weaken steel types such as Mage but Weakness to stealth rocks, water shuriken (which is everywhere) and ground is p bad.
Gengar's typing of poison allows it to hit the tapus which can be really good along with grass types.
This round is again a type for me because both their stabs are good but both have their own Problems but gengar has the edge
Lastly, there is stats
Gengar's potent 110 base speed can be really handy in stopping a kartana snowball because
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO but doesn't serve much more purpose than that because keldeo is trash rn and it mostly runs scarf
Blacephelon's Special attack is really dang good and has chance to break through sp. def. pex when using specs when having rocks and a layer of spikes because
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
Both have garbage defenses with gengar having a bit more defense and Blacephelon having a bit more sp. def.
Overall, I conclude that both are almost equal in their own right and feel that they should be in the same tier as each other. I personally feel that Blace is better but lets follow the results
I think people are really not understanding the importance of 107 Vs 110 speed in a Kartana-run meta. Beast boost is a fab ability, sure, but worthless when you're not snowballing thanks to being to slow or frail. If blace is scarf and gets a kill, kart comes in and revenges, while Gengar does the reverse. Gengar will sweep through a weakened team thanks to its speed, while also being able to tie with scarf Lati. The difference is very important when it comes to a rocks weak Mon. Yes blace has the power, but it's not enough to overcome it's speed tier when scarf kart and Bulu is such a viable (and popular) combo
Ok let me post with my own opinions on Blacephelon vs Gengar.(This is my second post so feel free to correct me and I don't know how to add animating pictures of the mons).
Abilities
Obviously Blacephelon wins right here because of its much better ability. Cursed body is kinda useless compared to the very solid ability in Beast Boost.
Movepool
Blacephelon-CM,F blast, F thrower, S Ball, Trick, Hidden Power, Explosion(For volc), PsyChic and Shock, Taunt, Will-o-wisp etc.
Gengar: S Ball, S Wave, F Blast, Taunt, Hidden Power, Will-o-wisp, Hex, D Bond etc.
This is a tie for me because the generic sets for both mons will have fixed moves such as S Ball is usually a fixed moveset (unless u run hex on gar), or you will usually always see S wave and Blast on Gar.
One might expect gar to win this round because of his ability to 2hko ttar but
1>Its focus blast, people call it focus miss for a reason and it can only 2hko ttar
2>Blacephelon can kinda break through ttar as well with correct prediction
Typing
Blacephelon: Fire/Ghost
Gengar: Ghost/Poison
Blacephelon's typing is a mixed bag. On one hand fire can be a potent stab allowing it to weaken steel types such as Mage but Weakness to stealth rocks, water shuriken (which is everywhere) and ground is p bad.
Gengar's typing of poison allows it to hit the tapus which can be really good along with grass types.
This round is again a type for me because both their stabs are good but both have their own Problems but gengar has the edge
Lastly, there is stats
Gengar's potent 110 base speed can be really handy in stopping a kartana snowball because
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO but doesn't serve much more purpose than that because keldeo is trash rn and it mostly runs scarf
Blacephelon's Special attack is really dang good and has chance to break through sp. def. pex when using specs when having rocks and a layer of spikes because
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
Both have garbage defenses with gengar having a bit more defense and Blacephelon having a bit more sp. def.
Overall, I conclude that both are almost equal in their own right and feel that they should be in the same tier as each other. I personally feel that Blace is better but lets follow the results
I don't want to be rude because you've clearly put a lot of effort into this post, which is more than can be said for a lot of posts on this thread (this one for instance haHaa), but none of what you said touches upon either Gengar or Blacephalon's status in the current metagame. You've basically broken down each Pokemon's attributes but made no comment on how they influence the current metagame. You haven't really said anything we can't figure out just by looking at their smogdex pages. The VR isn't based on how effective Pokemon seem on paper but how effective they are in practice.
That being said, Gengar appreciates the fact that a lot of balance and offense teams use Tyranitar as their Ghost resist, and as Chople and Scarf Tyranitar are both very rare in the current metagame, Gengar can easily take advantage of this fact with Focus Blast to pose a huge threat to most team archetypes. Yeah, Focus Blast can miss, but that's not a very strong argument by virtue of the fact that 70% of the time it doesn't miss. I admit I haven't tried the Z-Hex set that LL mentioned but even just LO 3 attacks + Taunt Gengar has been doing a ton of work for me in the past couple days. I definitely think this Pokemon still has a very relevant niche in OU as a breaker and isn't outclassed by Blacephalon by any means, in fact I'd say the current metagame is friendlier to Gengar than it is Blacephalon as many teams are overly reliant on things like Tyranitar and Toxapex to eat hits from Blacephalon (both of which Gengar can punish or take advantage of) and as such I believe Gengar in B+ would adequately represent this.
Insert obligatory meme about Buzzwole getting left out by the OU ranking team
What you thought I was going to put time and effort into putting the Swole Mosquito into a meme. You truly don't know me
Anyway, here are my thoughts on the current discussion
Gengar from B to B+: Yes
Not going to add much more to the conversation that hasn't already been said. Gengar rips thorugh most balances and has a solid enough niche to warrant a spot on the B+ roster
Amoonguss from B- to B: Yes
Again not much to say here as well. Thanks to regenerator, it can keep up momentum unlike Mega Venu, and has a poison typing to absorb T-spikes unlike Tangrowth. It's utility moves are also much better.
The three bad grass types( Mega Venu, Tangrowth, and Serperior) down: Yes
Can't say anything more about Mega Venu that wyattdev didn't already say, so just read his post
Tangrowth is outclassed and its niche in checking Kartana( it doesn't appreciate knock-off) and Non Z-Fly Lando is minute to the point that it should just drop a spot to reflect that its niche isn't the most appreciated
Serperior is bad, nothing else to say
Now to my own nominations:
From B+ to B
Since it seems that B+ is having a mass exodus, might as well plug in some support to drop this little pony to the abyss that is B. Recent Metra Trends ( rise of Tapu Bulu, heavier usage for Amoonguss, Kartana's heavier presence, and Toxapex being as common as ever) has done a number to our little pony friend. His two main sets, Calm Mind, and Scarf suffer from being easy switch-in fodder for Bulu and Pex, and the Pony struggles to make a mark in a metagame where fat and offensives grasses are now becoming more common in OU. Calm Mind, despite being able to wonderfully make Toxapex set-up fodder, absolutely despises the use of Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu as both are very good counters to the pony, and both are on the rise. More so, it also suffers from the fact that KokoLucha is highly spammed on the ladder for which it has no answer to. The final nail in the coffin however, is that its main role is no longer as needed. Kartana also does the whole checking Greninja, Tyranitar, and co better with its scarf set, with it being able to also knock off and defog giving it much better utility. However, checking Ash-Greninja better and Volcarona while still being a solid scarfer, and having a good Calm Mind setup set that can tear through unprepared teams is a clear and defined niche that deserves to have Keldeo ranked, but it should go down to B to reflect that it isn't on par with the mons we currently have residing in B+
