Move Wonder Room

[TheLegendTamer]

Wonder Room is a move that saw little to no use in the previous generation. If you are unfamiliar with Wonder Room it has a very unique effect. This thread will aim to explore its potential uses in the current generation via discussion as it received changes that might make it more viable now.

I'll start by introducing myself. For those thinking they might have missed something I've done in the past, don't be alarmed. I've never posted much here. I like to theorycraft and test stuff on the simulator. I don't really dabble much with laddering and the like. I most like just trying out weird things. Nothing special here.

Except there is something special to discuss, and that is Wonder Room. So let's begin by stating its effect:
Wonder Room will swap the defense and special defense stats of those on the field for 5 turns, counting the turn it was used. In the previous generation it had a priority if -7, making it similar to both Magic Room and Trick Room. It ignores stat boosts such as Iron Defense and the like when making the swap so this is something to consider.

The difference between last generation and now is that the move Wonder Room no longer has a -7 priority. It has a Priority of 0 now, meaning one can outspeed to swap the defenses.


With this in mind it has interesting implications. For example, Sableye can easily fit wonder room on its set and alternate between a Physical and Special wall with ease thanks to prankster. I've tested this out as a proof of concept and it worked flawlessly. Your team slots can condense a special and physical wall into one role with it.

Another thing it can do is throw off your opponent's walls. I've tested and seen situations where pokemon that once walled the pokemon I had out can no longer wall it, nor can they come back in to wall it. They are forced to find something else to wall you with different defenses. An Example being a Mega Aggron I ran into earlier today couldn't tank an earthquake from Salamence, even with filter it took a solid 72%.

An especially interesting implication is how much control it gives you over your opponents moves. If you have a late game physical sweeper that they are saving their best physical wall for they will be forced to bring it out early when it has to play the role of a special wall during Wonder Room's effects. Using wonder room as both an offensive and defensive measure can let you create stronger cores as well as break other cores.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

Every pokemon with Wonder Room has Psyshock, so I don't see a huge niche for it. It seems like a good doubles move, but I'm not sure about singles. I'd like another opinion though.
Anyway, nice OP :)

Sorry I'm fairly new to posting and accidentally posted the OP before I was done typing. I think I got the gist of what I wanted to post though.

However valid of a point you have with the move Psyshock, Wonder Room is a move that affects both sides of the field. You are not limited to the psychic move psyshock (I.e. Earthquake on M-Aggron in my earlier post that was omitted before an edit), nor are you limited to using wonder room for offensive purposes. This flexibility should provoke some creativity, even in singles. Damage calculators don't even consider Wonder Room at the moment and there's no precedent for using movesets that consider its effects. It'd be worth the exploration I assume.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

Ah I see. It's fine, sorry if it seemed like I took offense to perceived sarcasm. My demeanor seems too serious perhaps?

I understand your skepticism, the burden of proof totally lies on me. However, there is a reason I started this thread and that was to discuss it and encourage others to test it. I lack the time and drive to make teams, and one would have to be a proficient team builder to make use of such an interesting move. I have neither of these at my disposal and the teams I built to test it were merely test if my ideas were simply possible. They were, they are entirely possible.

I can speak from experience though, you are correct. The low turn count indeed makes it much more frustrating to make use of it outside of Doubles. However, Trick Room suffers the same situation in which it's much more effective in doubles. It hasn't prevented it from rising to team playstyle in the previous generation. Which is why I'm encouraging others, potentially more skilled than I, to test this move out.

However, from what I've seen it has much more potential and doesn't deserve to be written off as a gimmick right away. You are indeed to find it laughable that a M-Aggron tried to stay in to tank a physical move, however, one must also find it hilarious that a blissey must come in to tank Physical moves while Wonder Room is in effect.

Indeed, it is even more hilarious when the effect runs out and the physical attacker it has been forced to wall is now a major threat. Wonder Room is highly disruptive both when it is put into effect and when it runs out. Rather than seeing its low turn count as a weakness it can be an asset as well.

With the advent of team preview making use of Wonder Room effectively is much easier than one might think, I speculate. Being able to know who can sweep after the effect ends and which pokemon counters who inside and out can let one reap the rewards of changing the opposing team's roles.

 

[Milkshook]

Can you name any good users of the move other than Sableye? And in my opinion, going mixed with like superpower for Blissey or Fire blast for Skarmory with Life orb is better than setting up with wonder room which seems EXTREMELY difficult to get timings right.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

Can you name any good users of the move other than Sableye? And in my opinion, going mixed with like superpower for Blissey or Fire blast for Skarmory with Life orb is better than setting up with wonder room which seems EXTREMELY difficult to get timings right.

-Sableye is a really solid user of the move and doesn't find it too difficult to fit it onto its sets. However, I've tested Latios (since latias can't learn it) and found he can pressure fairly well with it. Not enough to justify replacing Psyshock with Psychic however. It did set it up for the team rather easily, and it stayed around for a bit.

-Alakazam is very fast and can pressure immediately both in and out of it. By extension so can Mega Alakazam.

-Gengar for the same reasons as Alakazam and Mega Gengar was really interesting having Wonder Room and Shadow Tag. Didn't test these two much at all though.

The problem with those two is that they're too frail to use the move and take a hit. Something I found rather funny was Slowking and Slowbro essentially become their counterpart during its effect. These two use the move fairly well and have Regenerator which I found useful.

-If you want more bulky ghosts, Confagrigus and Dusknoir can use the move. Haven't tested them yet though, I'd imagine their bulk would help.

- Speaking of ghosts, Mismagius is pretty fast, and Misdreavus can be pretty bulky.

I really want to test Meloetta and Mega Gardevoir. Meloetta sounds like fun for several reasons and M-Gardy and Gardy sound like ideal candidates.


It's also really funny you mentioned mixed options. Something I noticed while testing is how less effective mixed pokemon (they're not made useless) became in these instances. Fire Blast wouldn't work as well on Defensive Skarmory when the room is up. Blissey for similar reasons can tank a good physical hit.

Incidentally, I have yet to test the potential mixed pokemon have in wonder room. (to see if one can remedy this or make wonder room even more effective of a tactic)

 

[Toljik]

I wouldn't say that it's completely outclassed by Psyshock, since Psyshock can be a tad weak and you don't have the luxury of switching between hitting physical and special attacks. But a lot of the tier's physical and special walls can be taken care of by going mixed, even if your attackers have pathetic stats:

0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 177-211 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tauros has base 40 Special Attack. Tauros isn't viable in OU, but that's not the point.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

I wouldn't say that it's completely outclassed by Psyshock, since Psyshock can be a tad weak and you don't have the luxury of switching between hitting physical and special attacks. But a lot of the tier's physical and special walls can be taken care of by going mixed, even if your attackers have pathetic stats:

0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 177-211 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tauros has base 40 Special Attack. Tauros isn't viable in OU, but that's not the point.

Correct.

I fixed the previous error in the damage calculation with this edit. Here is how I'm testing for damage Calcs in wonder room. Since defensive stats swap, you simply use Showdown's Damage Calculator (http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/) and swap the defense and specially defensive stats of the pokemon. The Evs need be swapped too, a mistake I made in the unedited post. So in wonder room...

0- SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 73-88 (21.8 - 26.3%) -- 7.1% chance to 4HKO

What this means is in Wonder Room 252 HP 252 Def Skarmory becomes 252 HP 252 SpD skarmory instead. Tauros keeps its low 40 sp.A.

However, Tauros' rock slide deals even more damage as it keeps its 100 base attack and Skarmory now has a 252 HP 0 Defense backed by a now lower defense stat.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 155-183 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However the odds are much lower. This is just an example at how Wonder Room affects things. Doesn't seem like much but the damage has been impacted. With a little bit of investment in Special Defense Skarmory's new Defense stat can wall Tauros. I know this isn't the best example but its the principle of the matter that is the point right? Doesn't this seem interesting?

EDIT: During wonder room Tauros would be able to break Skarmory with a physical move that isn't Rock slide. So it works both ways. It also removes the need for Fire Blast if you're using Tauros with Wonder Room support. This thread is really meant to provoke thought and encourage creative use of the Move Wonder Room. Maybe it'll change the Meta one day (or maybe not). Nothing ventured nothing gained they say.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Wonder Room is completely viable if you want that extra 10 BP psychic boost. It's nothing silly.

What does bother me however, is the fact that completely everyone is ignoring the fact that wonder room fucks with YOUR defense and sp.def too, which would not be scary if you are using Golduck or a pokemon with well rounded defenses. As a matter of fact, the best user in my opinion of wonder room is porygon2. This is because he has access to psychic, both his defensive stats are stellar, and is fucked against eviolite chansey or so.

 

[lalala45]

I've known about this for a while, since wonder room is a cool move but I've never gotten much use out of it because of its negative priority. However I know what could be a great user for this: golduck. :)

golduck is a special attcking swift swimmer that does good damage but struggled to find a niche in comparison to others, with this wonder room change, it could bypass special walls with no problem.

Take blissey for example, under normal conditions golduck would do this much to it

252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 160-188 (22.4 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery.

after wonder room, it looks like this:

252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 851-1003 (119.1 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A special attacker that doesn't give a fuck about special walls is a great pokemon in my book, now golduck is unique (somewhat) and can checkmate a lot of pokemon with a wonder room set. :)

 

[TheLegendTamer]

I've known about this for a while, since wonder room is a cool move but I've never gotten much use out of it because of its negative priority. However I know what could be a great user for this: golduck. :)

It no longer has negative priority. This change is the reason I've revisited my testing with it. Being able to outspeed and use it carries some new ways to apply it. This includes swapping your defenses to better take a hit. That gives you another opportunity to use it. Even if you can't take advantage of it right away like that the effect is still on the field if that's what you needed.

 

[lalala45]

It no longer has negative priority. This change is the reason I've revisited my testing with it. Being able to outspeed and use it carries some new ways to apply it.

I already know that, I forgot to mention it though, sorry.

 

[Ajwf]

People, you're missing the point of wonder room. You have a nuke with 159 SpA setting his own sun with DEDICATED COUNTERS on slower teams. There are two types of Zard Counters: Those that Out-type AND add EV bulk (Gyarados, heatran), and those that simply outbulk (Chansey, anyone?). Now. Switch Chansey's SpeDef to it's def and paint the sky pink with that blob.

How about Mega Pinsir? You know how long it takes to justify a good counter to that one? I have to devote skarmory or my whole team gets wrecked. All of the sudden, under wonder room, Skarmory is getting cleanly wiped off the field. This is an offensive tool, with a few defensive users who can use it well. LO latios starts to rail upon everything not steel/fairy with his draco meteor. It does work.

Bisharp is even covered by typing and generally taken at +2, so ev spreads are based around him. Switch those, he gets through easier. This isn't a sweeping tool, it's a midgame wallbreaking tool and a niche defensive tool I've yet to figure out.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

People, you're missing the point of wonder room. You have a nuke with 159 SpA setting his own sun with DEDICATED COUNTERS on slower teams. There are two types of Zard Counters: Those that Out-type AND add EV bulk (Gyarados, heatran), and those that simply outbulk (Chansey, anyone?). Now. Switch Chansey's SpeDef to it's def and paint the sky pink with that blob.

How about Mega Pinsir? You know how long it takes to justify a good counter to that one? I have to devote skarmory or my whole team gets wrecked. All of the sudden, under wonder room, Skarmory is getting cleanly wiped off the field. This is an offensive tool, with a few defensive users who can use it well. LO latios starts to rail upon everything not steel/fairy with his draco meteor. It does work.

Bisharp is even covered by typing and generally taken at +2, so ev spreads are based around him. Switch those, he gets through easier. This isn't a sweeping tool, it's a midgame wallbreaking tool and a niche defensive tool I've yet to figure out.

You want something even more ridiculous? Going back to my first post, you lose skarmory as your check to Mega Pinsir.

What if you do have a good special wall to sponge pinsir while the room is in effect. All things are fine and dandy, then the room runs out.

Then you have a weakened special wall, neither it (assuming it took enough damage) nor skarmory can save you if they happen to have a powerful special sweeper. So when Wonder Room ticks out there's a danger.

EDIT: Factor in that they might have a special wall in on Mega Pinsir. This is the kind of situation a wonder room user has for their happy birthday.

 

[lalala45]

any offensive powerhouse would love this, as offensive powerhouses like zard-y, M-doom, scizor, Barbaracle, terrakion, etc. under wonder room would easily break through things that would require a turn of setup to actually accomplish.

When the room runs out, your wall to dedicated threat x is now gone, and now you can sweep under normal conditions.

Gen 6 made wonder room the most evil tool in any meta. Making it zero priority is actually pretty useful now.

 

[Hidious]

I'm still very skeptical of this move, does anyone have any replays of a team built around it doing well on the ladder?

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

I'm still very skeptical of this move, does anyone have any replays of a team built around it doing well on the ladder?

I'd build a team, but I still am researching it as well.

 

[lalala45]

I have one question though, does it switch your ev investments too?

 

[TheLegendTamer]

I have one question though, does it switch your ev investments too?

I'm pretty sure it swaps the actual stats themselves.

If you have a stat of 100 in defense, and a stat of 200 in special defense they swap. Recalling my Skarmory damage calculations 252 HP 252 Defense Skarmory with an Impish nature becomes the equivalent of a 252 HP 252 Special Defense Carefule Nature in Wonder Room. It also ignores other mods such as increasing boosts to the stat.

So if you have a +1 in defense when you use it the +1 stays on defense even though the defensive stats switch. So when calculating this be sure to use a calculator that lets you chance the base stats themselves in addition to the evs.

Edit: Applying both these pieces of information we can then deduce that abulky Calm Mind User with a Defense boosting nature while not as vulnerable after a boost under normal circumstances receive an Achilles heel in wonder room. As such pokemon tend to be EV'd to have higher defense than special defense in the hopes of the calm mind boost balancing that out. In wonder room the high defense becomes the special defense that the boosts are being given to, and the low special defense becomes the new defense. Hope that sorta paints what's going on while providing an idea of how to use Wonder Room in this situation.

tl;dr Yes, sort of for the defensive stats.

 

[Mymom234]

Does Wonder Room affect the way stats are affected by items? For example, how would an opponent using assault vest be affected?

 

[TheLegendTamer]

Does Wonder Room affect the way stats are affected by items? For example, how would an opponent using assault vest be affected?

Items fall in the same category as stat boosts. Wonder room only affects the stats, and the items and stat boosts are independent from the stats.

Edit: To further clarify, Wonder Room's effect takes effect before the other items and stat modifiers do. Assault vest will still affect the Sp.def Stat. The only difference in wonder room is the value of that stat.

 

[LoDart210]

It sounds very tempting and very effective on paper. However, field moves have evaporated into near non existence, and dedicating a slot to this move makes me worry.


I think its a great move to have in reserve.


E.g. Your physical sweepers have been ko'd and all you have left is special sweepers and your wonder guard Pokemon, while the opponent has blissey, and say, a really specially bulky sweeper like mega gardevoir.


That's a great chance to whip out wonder guard, catch your opponent flat footed and go for the sweep.

But to dedicate your team to constantly setting up and fighting under wonder room sounds a bit tiring for me and rather pointless.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

It sounds very tempting and very effective on paper. However, field moves have evaporated into near non existence, and dedicating a slot to this move makes me worry.


I think its a great move to have in reserve.


E.g. Your physical sweepers have been ko'd and all you have left is special sweepers and your wonder guard Pokemon, while the opponent has blissey, and say, a really specially bulky sweeper like mega gardevoir.


That's a great chance to whip out wonder guard, catch your opponent flat footed and go for the sweep.

But to dedicate your team to constantly setting up and fighting under wonder room sounds a bit tiring for me and rather pointless.

One example I provided earlier was forcing their physical or special walls out in wonder room, then blowing through their remaining hp outside of it. That only needs 1 wonder room application, as stated earlier as a wall breaking tool. It depends on how you want to apply wonder room. I suppose it's totally viable as something keep in the back on some pokemon you managed to free up a slot for it with.


Though I like to think I dream a bit bigger than that. Shoot for the moon and you'll land among the stars they say. Simply talking about it is fun for me.

I foresee wonder room users paying careful attentions to who's on the opponents team during team preview and planning out the timing of Wonder Room to most effectively use it to throw the opponent for a loop.

But you're right, unfortunately this is all on paper. There's no precedent for wonder room teams so we have no idea to what extent a team needs to be dedicated to it if at all (though I imagine you can't rely entirely on standard sets, recalling the skarmory example, though a bad example shows how you couldn't run an entirely standard ev spread), which fortunately means it still has a chance doesn't it? Hence why this thread exists and why I felt I had to start it. I want people to give it a spin.

Edit: In fact I feel that the hardest part is building a team with it rather than using it. In my tests I felt that Wonder Room itself was particularly successful but my team was simply lackluster. Damage calcs need to be made to see who matches up against who within and outside of Wonder room. Things you have to worry about that your opponent might not be. So in a way this is tiring.

 

[LoDart210]

One example I provided earlier was forcing their physical or special walls out in wonder room, then blowing through their remaining hp outside of it. That only needs 1 wonder room application, as stated earlier as a wall breaking tool. It depends on how you want to apply wonder room.

I foresee wonder room users paying careful attentions to who's on the opponents team during team preview and planning out the timing of Wonder Room to most effectively use it to throw the opponent for a loop.

But you're right, unfortunately this is all on paper. There's no precedent for wonder room teams so we have no idea to what extent a team needs to be dedicated to it if at all (though I imagine you can't rely entirely on standard sets), which fortunately means it still has a chance doesn't it? Hence why this thread exists and why I had to start it. I want people to give it a spin.

No no! What I meant was that using it as I (and now you) said, keeping in reserve to provide sweepers leeway against something that is walling you, is the more realistic and more possible use of it.

It's the idea of using it as a constant field effect that gets me sceptical.

Clefable, slowbro, Uxie, deoxys defense, deoxys speed, sableye, and possibly Latios strike me as the best possible users of the move.

 

[TheLegendTamer]

No no! What I meant was that using it as I (and now you) said, keeping in reserve to provide sweepers leeway against something that is walling you, is the more realistic and more possible use of it.

It's the idea of using it as a constant field effect that gets me sceptical.

Clefable, slowbro, Uxie, deoxys defense, deoxys speed, sableye, and possibly Latios strike me as the best possible users of the move.

Oh, OH. OH! I feel dumb.

Yes, I never intended it for it to be used as a constant field effect. Rather very well timed use for specific situations in which you are walled and need to damage a wall or you need to wall something by swapping the defenses on your walls. Like giving your Defensive Mandibuzz a special defensive role to defog against a team you normally can't against. Such thing give you some flexibility in how you build your teams I think.

However, if someone can build a team entirely around it, that'd be great, so go wild.

I agree with your list. (Though I still want to test meloetta if not solely for the novelty value of effectively having 4 base stats to work with when you factor relic song+wonder room)

 

[Jaroda]

The list of users for this move is pretty short. Most have abysmal speed like Reuniclus and SloBroKing. But at least they have Regenerator. The fastest user is apparently Mismagius, who isn't really OU competitive anymore. This seems more trouble than it's worth.